Implied odds hands in Limit

[Iconoclastic]

First I'm a No-Limit player diversifying into Limit, where I'm inexperienced.

A while ago I thought that nut flush draws and suited connectors had more value in Limit and I should play more of them in Limit than No Limit. But now I'm rethinking that idea.

I wouldn't bet/call made hands confidently from the likes of A4s and JTs unless it was a non-bottom two pair, Full House, flush, or straight. Statistically, the chances of a implied odds hand making one of those good hands by the river is not higher than 5%.

Which means that in order for making that preflop call be profitable, the pot has to be, on average, greater than 20 times the Big Blind.

Unfortunately, in my "limit"ed experience that does not seem to be the case. The average pot is less than 20 times the Big Blind.

Does that mean that implied odds hands are -EV in limit holdem?

If I can't play those hands, what CAN I play besides PP and high suited connectors?

[Iconoclastic]

Anyone? I thought there were Limit players here.

Or is the question too arcane or too stupid to answer?

[pokerfanatic]

I'll take a stab at it, sorry for not getting to it sooner, I have been busy all weekend... Anyways Limit and No Limit are tow different bests all together, as I’m sure you know. Depending on the type of table is how I’d play these type hands... I'm not an expert at limit or no limit by all means but this is what I would do... In a table that is aggressive I would see a flop with these hands if i flop my flush/ 4card flush on the flop then I will go from there if I miss I just simply get the hell out the hand unless I was lucky enough to hit my backdoor, like two pair or a set... In a game that are all rocks you could maybe play them also but strongly trying to win the pots without showdowns... In a loose game I would probably play tighter and not as many of the marginal hands... It all depends on the situations and players, in limit you can see most flops with out hurting your BR (depends on the limits and your BR)... No limit same situation I think you know what to do... Hope that helped some, hopefully someone else will give there opinion, and probably shit on my post while they're at it

ohh I frogot to talk about the implied odds sorry to answer that, It's hard to calculate pre-flop because you don't know if you'll be staying in post flop, thus say you see the flop you have a made hand you want to extract as much money as possible from your opponents... If you have a 4 flush on the flop you have a 30% chance to hit it with two cards left and a 19.5% chance to hit with one left... so you would calculate implied odds appropriately depending on the type of table (loose, tight, aggressive, est.)...

[Iconoclastic]

Well the thing is, you say that if there are Aggressive players at my table I should play Implied Odds hands preflop.

But if the pot odds for those hands are bad (Statistically, the chances of a implied odds hand making one of those good hands by the river is not higher than 5%. Which means that in order for making that preflop call be profitable, the pot has to be, on average, greater than 20 times the Big Blind. Unfortunately, in my "limit"ed experience that does not seem to be the case. The average pot is less than 20 times the Big Blind. ) then I shouldn't even call with them, because even if I get an Aggressive opponent overbetting their hand, the pot'll STILL be less than 20 times the Big Blind, which is what the pot needs to be to make my preflop call neutralEV.

[pokerfanatic]

Well it sounds you have your mind made up on how to play it... I was only saying how I might play them... My game is more "fell" then statistics and pot/ implied odds... I took my shoot, told you what I would do, time for you to ask someone else...

[zilch]

I've just read through Small Stakes Hold'em (fairly quickly before reading it again in detail). In that book the opening hands it suggest you play are exaclty what you say pocket pairs and High suited connectors. Then when you do get this sort of hand play aggressively and extract as much as you can from your opponents. Since my quick read a couple of weeks ago I'm doing a lot better at holdem than I was before so I would recommend the book.

[fishstick]

I've just read through Small Stakes Hold'em (fairly quickly before reading it again in detail). In that book the opening hands it suggest you play are exaclty what you say pocket pairs and High suited connectors. Then when you do get this sort of hand play aggressively and extract as much as you can from your opponents. Since my quick read a couple of weeks ago I'm doing a lot better at holdem than I was before so I would recommend the book.

i picked this up last week, and while not ready to give a full review, i cannot say enough good things about SSH. my limit game has already improved!

it's almost a more practical, less theoritical version of sklansky's advanced holdem totally geared toward low limit [generally bad] play.

it will change the way you think about small stakes limit hold em.

[Krapp]

I think your assumption that the pot has to be 20BB is roughly correct. That would assume you played any 2-suited cards, regardless of which they were and your position. If thats the case, you would be spending 10-11BB before a 4-card flush draw flops. Afterwards, 2/3 of the time you would be betting flop/turn w/o turning a flush or another 3BB. Total BB before getting a flush (i think) is 26BB.

However, if you play in position, small-suited connectors (in multi-way pots), and large suited-connectors, the amount of money you spend getting a 4-card flush draw should balance-out with the extra strength of straight draws, top-pair draws, and being in-position. Knowing that, if we assume that you started the hand w/ a 4-card flush flop already:
- 2/3 of the time you would pay 4BB (or 8BB) total before making a flush

In this scenario, you would need to win 8BB to break even, or 2 other opps have to play and call your river bet or make profit. If one drops on turn and another drops on river, you break even only if SB/BB money are there too. I guess thats why its a good rule of thumb that if you are drawing to a straight or flush draw that you have at least 3-other opps in. The other rule of thumb you mentioned is if you think the final pot size will be over 20BB, then chasing the flush or straight draw is good. Most HtoH to to river I play are about 75%ish of that.

Hm, maybe another rule of thumb for: Should I call the the bet based on the number of outs in my hand?
1 / [(# of outs (/100)) * 2 * (your bet, e.g. 1BB for flop bet)] should be less than what is in the current pot. Or if you have flush draw, thats 9-outs or 18% -> 1/.18 -> 5.56BB. Thats about the same number if 3-opps call the flop bet (6BB).

Oh, I am not sure what BB is to folks. I am assuming its the amount of the Big Blind, not Big Bet which maybe could be 2x Big Blind

If I am way off base, please let me know.

[Iconoclastic]

I've had a recent interesting experience in Limit.

I've been losing with my great starting hands after raising preflop to hands like 37o and 89s.

I know it's the nature of Limit that it minimizes the edge good players have over bad players, but this gets really frustrating. Any hand would be worth calling the two big blinds (one preflop raise) with because the chances of them winning with just medium pair isn't that bad (if you raise preflop with high cards or a medium PP). So they are justified in calling a preflop raise with practically anything.

Is there anything I can do about this(internally or externally)? Should I just stick to what I'm good at (NoLimit)?

[Krapp]

Assuming you have 2-overcards vs 2-under cards from opps. If 1 of them are calling to the river you are 60-65% favorite. If 2-opps call to to river, I think your a an underdog. 2-opps each have a 35-40% chance of beating you. I believe if you draw top-pair on flop and they call you to the river, you are about 2/3 favorite.