LHE: More Scrub Poker

[Fnord]

Hand 1

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is SB with 4s, Ah.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Fnord completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) Tc, 3d, As (4 players)
Fnord bets, BB folds, CO calls, Button folds.

Turn: (3 BB) 8d (2 players)
Fnord bets, CO calls.

River: (5 BB) 4h (2 players)
Fnord bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 7 BB

Results in white below:
CO shows Ad 9c (one pair, aces).
Fnord shows 4s Ah (two pair, aces and fours).
Outcome: Fnord wins 7 BB.

Hand 2

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP1 with Kh, 4h.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Fnord calls, MP2 folds, CO raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, Fnord calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) Qh, 2h, Ah (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, Fnord calls, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) Qs (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Fnord calls, Button calls.

River: (9.25 BB) 8d (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Fnord calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

Results in white below:
UTG+1 shows Js Th (one pair, queens).
Fnord shows Kh 4h (flush, ace high).
Button shows Kc Ac (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: Fnord wins 12.25 BB.

Hand 3

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with Kc, Jd.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO raises, Button folds, SB calls, Fnord calls.

Flop: (6 SB) Js, Td, 3c (3 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, CO raises, SB calls, Fnord calls.

Turn: (6 BB) Th (3 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, CO calls, SB calls.

River: (9 BB) 5d (3 players)
SB checks, Fnord checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Results in white below:
SB shows Kd 9h (one pair, tens).
Fnord shows Kc Jd (two pair, jacks and tens).
CO shows Ad Qc (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Fnord wins 9 BB.

Hand 4

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP3 with Jc, Tc.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Fnord calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) Ac, 5d, Jd (4 players)
SB bets, BB folds, MP2 folds, Fnord raises, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 7d (2 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, SB calls.

River: (6 BB) Js (2 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Results in white below:
SB shows 7s As (two pair, aces and jacks).
Fnord shows Jc Tc (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: Fnord wins 8 BB.

[heatman]

Still can't figure out why you're playing limit. But I bet you get a different perspective after playing NL for awhile.

Question on hand 2. I take it you didn't raise the nut flush because you had two callers for a bet, and raising probably takes one out? Why not raise though on the end after the first bet? Worried about the full house?

Would you have played that hand differently in NL?

[Fnord]

Question on hand 2. I take it you didn't raise the nut flush because you had two callers for a bet, and raising probably takes one out? Why not raise though on the end after the first bet? Worried about the full house?

Tough call. A little worried about the boat and wasn't sure how likely I was to get a cold call on the river with that board. Another reason it's good to be in position with drawing hands like this and it was a little careless to limp in from where I did.

Would you have played that hand differently in NL?

Yes, I should hope AKo would be a little more enthusiastic about taking control of the hand. I can't believe he didn't raise the flop! Well actually, no I can.

The funniest hand was the JTs vs A7s. He's got 2 pair on the turn and he's calling, is the flush board really that scary?!?!?

[heatman]

Yeah, that is an interesting hand. Hadn't had time to read it closely this afternoon. Why the raise with the underpair? You were beat at that point. Did you have a read on that guy, or just hoping he'd think you had the A and fold?

You're one of the best hand readers I know, and I'm interested in what you thought he had that he would call your re-raise on the flop. I would have been thinking he was betting his flush draw on the flop, and with the third diamond setting you up for a check raise. I guess your bet their surprises me a little.

Lucky card on the river.

Still wonder what he was thinking. If he put you on flush draw, he's gotta be thinking you made it on the turn, but he calls. Just doesn't make sense.

[Fnord]

You're one of the best hand readers I know, and I'm interested in what you thought he had that he would call your re-raise on the flop. I would have been thinking he was betting his flush draw on the flop, and with the third diamond setting you up for a check raise. I guess your bet their surprises me a little.

This is low limit Hold'em and he's in the small blind. He could have any pair, pocket pair or be semi-bluffing the flush draw. I got a face card second pair with a Ten kicker, no way I just call here, and folding would be just plain silly, he's gonna have to 3-bet or pop me on turn to get any respect. After raising the flop a lot of players will dump UI to a bet on the turn and with Jack second pair, ten kicker that's just fine with me. Also, consider that I have position on him so I have a chance of saving a river bet unimproved.

Lucky card on the river.

5 outs. I'm actually better off with second pair than top pair with the worse kicker.

Still wonder what he was thinking. If he put you on flush draw, he's gotta be thinking you made it on the turn, but he calls. Just doesn't make sense.

He's a weak player, it's a joy to play against. I think his only mistake was not 3-betting me to take back over the hand. I called pre-flop, he called pre-flop, it's not time to worry about kicker problems.

[Toasty]

Personally I didn't like the ealry play with Hand 1 and Hand 2, A4os are rags and folding would save more money from the SB then playing them makes you. Catching the 4 on the river saved you some BBs.

Hand 2 is an easy fold in this position, even with the Ah I'd fold here. There is to much risk of a raise and paying 2 SBs for the hope of 2 pair / flush / FD is to high. Playing these cards from here i'm sure is -EV.

Whats weird is i'm sure you know this but you still played them ?

How many tables do you play at once? For limit it would deffinatly be worth playing less cards and increaseing the table numbers if its boredom. Saving money in Limit is more important than making it.

Hand 4 I like the flop raise, lets you know what you are up against

[Fnord]

Personally I didn't like the ealry play with Hand 1 and Hand 2, A4os are rags and folding would save more money from the SB then playing them makes you. Catching the 4 on the river saved you some BBs.

Interesting, with just limpers? A4 has the wheel str8 too.. But yeah, I think I'm being too loose with my SB, PT says I'm losing the most money there. Curiously, the BB remains my most profitable postion followed by the button (I love to steal!)

Hand 2 is an easy fold in this position, even with the Ah I'd fold here. There is to much risk of a raise and paying 2 SBs for the hope of 2 pair / flush / FD is to high. Playing these cards from here i'm sure is -EV.

Table adjustment. Loose, passive call stations. I had a caller in front and figured only a monster would dare raise the flop, also once the limping starts others tend to follow with crap in later positions. KXs loses very little value vs AXs in a multi-pot. In retrospect, the whole out of position thing made maximizing my payout when I hit difficult. Although Big Slick not raising the flop and maybe the turn was just plain lame.

How many tables do you play at once? For limit it would deffinatly be worth playing less cards and increaseing the table numbers if its boredom. Saving money in Limit is more important than making it.

One, I like to focus on what I'm doing. Particularly since I'm somewhat new to Limit. The laydown decisions are different. For example, laying down Jacks to rational UTG limper followed by a raise from a tight player is pretty routine in NL, but probably marginal in Limit.

Overall, I'm liking limit since I'm better able to deal with the table rocks while abusing the gamblers. Rocks don't want to play with me unless they have the goods and even then the payoff isn't as nasty compared to No Limit. Since I'm not playing trash (15% outside of my blinds) and raising it up the loose players love/hate me. I build up a big pot when they hit, but more often me or one of the rocks is taking it down.

Put in an hour this evening and it was great, I even hung around a couple orbits after the gamblers busted out since the players to my right were giving me a consistant free pass on my blinds. At one point I raised with JTo 2 off the button, called by two. Flop came Jack high, I bet, down to one who called down on a pair of 7s with A7s. So much for making a stand...

Although, I should learn more about check-raising. PT says I've only done it twice in 950 hands. Maybe it's just not my style, I'd rather bet it out and make them figure out what's in my hole. Sometimes my bet takes it down, and raises give a lot more information than a flop bet does.

Next step is to start taking more measures to identify the rocks so I'm more aware of when to get out of the way...

My worst hand was paying off a suited connector that limped in from UTG and flopped a flush. I came in on a raise from LP with AJs to get him heads up and called him down with top pair after he raised me on the flop. Tough one to get away from.

[Toasty]

Yeah, not much you could have done there, I prefer the "check and call" over the fold as you will lose more money folding the winner Vs calling the winner.

Glad you are enjoying it, I'm looking forward to coming back to it, I have 140 more tourney games i want to play first and I don't want to play two game types at the same time, gets me confused

[heatman]

Although, I should learn more about check-raising. PT says I've only done it twice in 950 hands. Maybe it's just not my style, I'd rather bet it out and make them figure out what's in my hole. Sometimes my bet takes it down, and raises give a lot more information than a flop bet does.

A limit play from early position that I like is to check-raise on the turn after I bet out on the flop, especially when I've got a decent but not great hand or have little (maybe even just a good draw) against one or two weak opponents.

After calling my bet on the flop, then seeing me check the turn, mediocre players will think I was trying the steal the pot and try to bet me out. A check raise at that point will often end it right there, or get you heads up.

With a big hand I also usually save my raises until the turn, because of the higher bet size. You usually get one chance to raise in limit (once you do everyone usually checks to you) and you get a little more value on the turn, and sometimes a few more calls because of the pot size. Of course, if you are trying to show strength to limit the field, a raise on the flop is a better play - but then consider the check-raise on the turn.

If you start using the check raise, against decent players you'll sometimes get a free card on the turn after betting out on the flop, again in early position. With a weak hand the button sometimes will just let it go rather than risk a double bet.

[Toasty]

I don't agree with betting the flop and checking the turn at all. Its just giving away a free card to beat you with. If you enter the pot raiseing its better to just bet all the way. If you are going to check the turn you are better off checking the flop.

If i hit the flop big and havn't come in to the pot raiseing i check and call the flop (unless its 2 bet then, if i'm strong i 3 bet) this way even if they have no hand the orignal better from the flop will bet with anything on the turn thinking that there is a good chance to steal. It will almost always be bet by someone.

I check raise and occasionly get re-rasied from a no hand thinking i'm trying to steal the steal. Most of the time I get 3-6 BBs, if i had raised the flop I'm only geting 2-4.

[heatman]

Agreed that you risk giving away a free card. Like anything, use is situational. Obviously if a free card will be likely to beat you, it wouldn't be wise to risk one.

But if you've got Ax with a board A, bet it on the flop and get a caller who you think is on an underpair, I think its a pretty good play if the board is otherwise safe.

Note that I didn't suggest this play after you've raised on the flop. I'm talking about the situation where the late player believes that your flop bet was a steal attempt, and few would put you on that if you called or raised on the flop. If you've raised on the flop, I agree with betting out. Pretty unlikely that someone without a good hand is going to go for the check-raise. You are really inducing a bluff with this play, so you need to be pretty sure you have him beat or that he will fold to the check-raise.

Its true that an underpair may call a SB on the flop, and fold anyway to a BB on the turn if they don't catch something. But if I've seen steal attempts from the late player he's likely to be thinking steal again, and this gives you a chance to snag an extra bet. If he folds to the check raise, great, you got a BB that you wouldn't have. If he calls, so much the better.

Limit just gets so boring if you don't mix it up a little bit.

[Fnord]

Couldn't resist...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP2 with A, 4.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, Fnord calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Fnord calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12 SB) Q, A, 7 (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets, Fnord raises, CO folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 2 (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Fnord checks.

River: (9 BB) 4 (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Fnord bets, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Results in white below:
BB shows Ts 2s (one pair, twos).
MP1 shows Ah 6h (one pair, aces).
Fnord shows Ad 4d (two pair, aces and fours).
Outcome: Fnord wins 12 BB.