Pocket Jacks

[heatman]

I've been following alot of the discussion about pocket pairs. Seems like there's been good discussion about AA, KK and small pocket pairs, but I'm interested in better ways to play those mid pairs (JJ, TT).

I use two distinct strategies pre-flop for these groupings.

With big pairs, I bet half pot to pot size (depending on the table) to limit the field. My thinking for this is that KK is a stong hand unimproved as long as I don't let the 35s stick around for a lucky flop. I also put QQ in this "big pair" category.

With small pairs, I follow the advice in this site's strategy as well. I try to see the flop for cheap and figure that I need a set to really play them further. Apart from really raggy flops, I'm likely to fold my pockets to any reasonable bet if I don't catch a set.

My problem is figuring out where the mid pairs fit in this strategy. Of course TT can win a pot, but any face card on the flop makes this pretty scary. So I don't usually raise TT or less, and just hope for a set. I have been putting JJ in this category too - but I've seen some pretty strong play on JJ pre-flop.

Any thoughts on this topic?

[fishstick]

my approach is more SNG 'centric, and i'm by no means an expert, so keep that in mind.

assumption - an SNG tourney with 8 - 10 players

with 99, TT, JJ preflop:

early position - call, fold to large raises

middle position - if no raises and no/few limpers, AND i feel the players in later position are not real aggressive, maybe a 3 - 4 xBB raise with TT, JJ, otherwise call. if someone comes back with a decent reraise (especially some one from early position) get out. i'd rather fold than take a chance against someone trying to slowplay AK.

late position - if no raises and no/few limpers, i'll throw out a ~6 - 8xBB bet and try to take it right there.

i wouldn't be to alarmed if you get callers, just be very careful (especially if don't hit your set) post flop.

this is very SNG oriented, and of course, these middle pair become much stronger as there are fewer players. also, my early SNG approach is survival, rather than taking too many chances, so this may be too conservative.

hope this helps.

[jmrogers7]

I personally hate TT and JJ the most of any two hands in hold 'em. To me these are the 2 most "in between" hands that I can get. I mix up my play with both of these hands depending on the table. No two hands confuse me more in how to play them pre-flop than these two.

I would love to hear more comments from others on these two hands. I am now in a zone where I will simply limp-in with TT and do the same or make only a moderate raise pre-flop with JJ (usually in the neighborhood of $1.50). I have been burned many times with these two hands and I know it's because of my uncertainty of how to play them pre-flop.

I cannot tell you how much I currently loathe these 2 hands. Perhaps with some advice my feelings on these hands will change but now my uncertainty with them is fostering my hatred of them. I look forward to some advice on how to better play these two banes of my existence!

Did I mention I hate these 2 hands!?

[Fnord]

I personally hate TT and JJ the most of any two hands in hold 'em. To me these are the 2 most "in between" hands that I can get. I mix up my play with both of these hands depending on the table. No two hands confuse me more in how to play them pre-flop than these two.

I hear ya. I'm waiting for someone else to touch this one... Ttanaka? Xianti? Eric?

I would love to hear more comments from others on these two hands. I am now in a zone where I will simply limp-in with TT and do the same or make only a moderate raise pre-flop with JJ (usually in the neighborhood of $1.50). I have been burned many times with these two hands and I know it's because of my uncertainty of how to play them pre-flop.

I disagree. If you're going to (re)raise, do it with authority. What you have in the hole is their problem.

...errr... I guess a better way to put it is, you don't want to be giving away too much information on what's in your hole pre-flop, so don't factor in what you got so much when determining bet size.

[xbones]

[crazyeddie]

I think that pocket TT JJ (and for that matter, sometimes 99) need to be treated a very specific way that is the combination of big slick and low wired pairs:

PRE-FLOP: Treat like Big Slick

Pre-flop, TT and JJ should be treated/played almost identically to AKs.

I think it is a disservice that most people either limp or baby-raise these hands from middle and late positions pre-flop. Talk about giving out information on your hand! People have been watching you raise $3-$5 pre flop with AA, KK and AK, and suddenly it drops to $1.5-$2? What do you hope to gain with this raise? It almost invites a re-raise from AKs, or even smaller pockets or AQ, who put you on AT, AJ.

I think TT, JJ and even sometimes 99 ALL need to be aggressively raised the same way you would raise big slick suited. Show strength! If you are re-raised, do what you would do when faced with a re-raise when holding big slick....consider the re-raiser, the table dynamics, position, number of likely opponents, and stack size.

FLOP: Treat like small or middle wired pairs
This is make or break time with these hands, and in this way they behave much like baby wired pairs. If you caught your set, you are golden, and if you didn't, you MUST play tenuously, especially if there are two or more overcards or draws. If you did a good job isolating pre-flop, you are in good position when the board fills with rags or 9 highs. You can bet it there and hope to take it down. If you are re-raised, you might be against a higher pair, but equally likely against two overs or a draw and only very rarely a smaller set.

When the flop comes with highcards (and doesn't fill your set), you are still in good position because your pre-flop raise might earn you a free card or respect for the ace-representation here.

Turn: You are in this deep....

If you are still in it by the turn than you either are holding an overpair to the board, pair to one overcard on the board, you hit your set, or you bet representing an ace with a high flop and were merely called.

In general:

One or even two overs on the flop are not necessarily a deal-breaker, but on the turn, any more overcards are deadly. You are likely holding second-best.
Hitting your set now is the best time to hit it, as long as it doesn't fill any draws.
Watch for completion of draws.

Other than that, turn and river play will depend on the cards that fall.

This is just my humble opinion and how I tend to play them. Any thoughts?

[jmrogers7]

If you did a good job isolating pre-flop, you are in good position when the board fills with rags or 9 highs. You can bet it there and hope to take it down. If you are re-raised, you might be against a higher pair, but equally likely against two overs or a draw and only very rarely a smaller set.

When the flop comes with highcards (and doesn't fill your set), you are still in good position because your pre-flop raise might earn you a free card or respect for the ace-representation here.

Good point, crazyeddie. This is how I used to play these two hands prior ro a loooooong streak of getting burned by them. That is what set me on my current zone of playing them as I described above. Kind of a case of trying to minimize my loses instead of trying to make the most out of two pretty decent hands. It's all psychological for me right now with TT and JJ and I know that how I'm plying them currently is not the way to go in the long run. i guess I just have to get past my previous experiences and stick to the plan.

Thanks for the advice!

[fishstick]

I cannot tell you how much I currently loathe these 2 hands.
Did I mention I hate these 2 hands!?

come on, jm, open up, don't hold back.

for reasons i can't really explain, i would much rather see these hands in a SNG than a ring game...

[Fnord]

for reasons i can't really explain, i would much rather see these hands in a SNG than a ring game...

Because by the time you would play these hands aggressivly in a SnG, you're probably already short handed with large blinds?


Argh... brings back memories of one of the last SnGs I played in.

I got the chip lead by around a 2 to 1 margin with around 5 players left. Short stack goes all-in. I call with Queens, he's got Aces. I'm still a big stack though. Medium stack goes after my blind, I got Tens and push back all-in. He calls with Queens. Desperation time, I get like 6s or something like that and push All-in in hopes of getting off life support and get called by Tens. 2nd best pocket pair 3 times in a row and not one suck-out to show for it.

[jmrogers7]

come on, jm, open up, don't hold back.

Ha! Can't stand those hands!

Hey fishstick, you'll appreciate this (being the resident "old guy" and all! )

Yesterday, one of the new guys at work asked me if I was 40 years old! I told him to meet me in the playground after work! Probably has something to do with the gray coming in my facial hair since I have yet to shave this week!! 35 years old and getting grayer by the day!

[fishstick]

Ha! Can't stand those hands!

Hey fishstick, you'll appreciate this (being the resident "old guy" and all! )

Yesterday, one of the new guys at work asked me if I was 40 years old! I told him to meet me in the playground after work! Probably has something to do with the gray coming in my facial hair since I have yet to shave this week!! 35 years old and getting grayer by the day!

some advice from the resident old guy - i started getting gray in my mid 30's, and have never, ever complained about it. that's just like spitting in the face of baldness gods. i'm getting gray, but still have 'lots of hair. of course, the days of having a goatee are over: "dude, is that a cotton ball stuck to your chin?"

give 'em hell, jm, and if you need it on the playground, i got your back.

Because by the time you would play these hands aggressivly in a SnG, you're probably already short handed with large blinds?

correct - by the time it's down to 5 or 6, i'm thrilled to see the Benny (pair of jacks, as in jack benny, does a pair of jacks have a name?) as most other players are playing a little nervous at this point.

[jmrogers7]

yeah, I'm not knockin' the grayness! I still have a good amount of hair and I am thankful for every piece of it! I know this gray is from all the women (current and *cough, cough*, past) in my life! Ex's will do that to ya!

The only thing I've ever hear JJ called before is "hooks".

i'm thrilled to see the Benny (pair of jacks, as in jack benny, does a pair of jacks have a name?)

My Lord! A "Jack Benny" reference and I know what your talking about! Now I do feel old!

[fishstick]

ummm, jack benny who??? i'm not that old!

you know the sad thing, i've got a surfboard that's older than a lot of the guys on this board.

[EddieBoy]

Hey, take it from the resident bald guy------enjoy your hair while it lasts...Mine didnt..hahhaha

[johnnyawe]

Here's an example of what NOT to do:

***** Hand History for Game 578536191 *****
0/0 TexasHTGameTable (NL) - Thu May 06 01:51:41 EDT 2004
Table capachino (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: joshinu ( $19.15)
Seat 2: mkinjo ( $18.30)
Seat 3: HuckJammer ( $31.75)
Seat 4: joe_rounder ( $24.62)
Seat 5: acerman32 ( $20.75)
Seat 6: DarkFlash ( $17.60)
Seat 7: SunnyCalzone ( $51.13)
Seat 8: FaTaMa ( $24.25)
Seat 9: TheNatural ( $49.79)
Seat 10: eglize ( $2.23)
joshinu posts small blind (0.25)
mkinjo posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to TheNatural [ Jd, Jh ]
joe_rounder calls (0.50)
acerman32 folds.
DarkFlash folds.
SunnyCalzone folds.
FaTaMa raises (1) to 1
TheNatural calls (1)
eglize folds.
joshinu calls (0.75)
mkinjo calls (0.50)
joe_rounder calls (0.50)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4s, 9d, 7d ]
joshinu checks.
mkinjo checks.
joe_rounder checks.
FaTaMa bets (3)
TheNatural raises (8) to 8
joshinu folds.
mkinjo folds.
joe_rounder folds.
FaTaMa raises (20.25) to 23.25
FaTaMa is all-In.
TheNatural: wow
TheNatural folds.
Creating Main Pot with $35.20 with FaTaMa
** Summary **
Main Pot: $35.20 | Rake: $1.05
Board: [ 4s 9d 7d ]
joshinu balance $18.15, lost $1 (folded)
mkinjo balance $17.30, lost $1 (folded)
HuckJammer balance $31.75, sits out
joe_rounder balance $23.62, lost $1 (folded)
acerman32 balance $20.75, didn't bet (folded)
DarkFlash balance $17.60, didn't bet (folded)
SunnyCalzone balance $51.13, didn't bet (folded)
FaTaMa balance $35.20, bet $24.25, collected $35.20, net +$10.95
TheNatural balance $40.79, lost $9 (folded)
eglize balance $2.23, didn't bet (folded)


My normal strat with JJ is to either limp in or sometimes baby raise (just to get people thinking a little bit), and then if no high cards come down on the flop I'll try to take the pot down right there. Above, it did not work out too well.. If a high card comes down on the flop, I almost always fold. We all know how everyone on PP loves to play Ax, Kx, or Qx.

[mengdeezy]

10 10 and JJ are definitely raising hands.

depending on how many people are trying to limp i usually raise between $2 - $3.5, then i play it off the flop...

if the flop shows cards all lower than my pair, i bet the pot or close to it, to stop anyone from drawing into a hand.

if the flop shows a card higher than my pair, i play a little more cautiously, depending on how many callers there are and what i know about my opponents i may play it aggressively or put the brakes on.

keep in mind you should always watch out for the reraise preflop when holding this hand because that usually indicates a higher pocket pair...
if the raise isn't too much, you may want to call and pray for the set or save your chips and fold the hand preflop.

here's a example:

***** Hand History for Game 580832216 *****
0/0 TexasHTGameTable (PL) - Fri May 07 01:34:10 EDT 2004
Table Passionate Instinct (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: chohca ( $29.37)
Seat 2: Monknpunk ( $18.65)
Seat 3: JustusLeague ( $25)
Seat 4: jester32 ( $66.08)
Seat 5: EASYONPAPA ( $78.72)
Seat 6: foxyterry ( $24.50)
Seat 7: mamaritz ( $15)
Seat 9: taylor012 ( $6.20)
Seat 10: BuckyMetro ( $11.68)
EASYONPAPA posts small blind (0.25)
foxyterry posts big blind (0.50)
JustusLeague posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to chohca [ Td, Ts ]
taylor012 calls (0.50)
BuckyMetro folds.
chohca raises (2.75) to 2.75
Monknpunk folds.
JustusLeague folds.
jester32 folds.
EASYONPAPA folds.
foxyterry calls (2.25)
taylor012 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8c, 5c, 6s ]
foxyterry checks.
chohca bets (6.45)
foxyterry raises (21.75) to 21.75
foxyterry is all-In.
chohca calls (15.30)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 3d ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 6d ]
Creating Main Pot with $47.75 with foxyterry
** Summary **
Main Pot: $47.75 | | Rake: $2.50
Board: [ 8c 5c 6s 3d 6d ]
chohca balance $52.62, bet $24.50, collected $47.75, net +$23.25 [ Td Ts ] [ two pairs, tens and sixes -- Td,Ts,8c,6s,6d ]
Monknpunk balance $18.65, didn't bet (folded)
JustusLeague balance $24.50, lost $0.50 (folded)
jester32 balance $66.08, didn't bet (folded)
EASYONPAPA balance $78.47, lost $0.25 (folded)
foxyterry balance $0, lost $24.50 [ As 8s ] [ two pairs, eights and sixes -- As,8s,8c,6s,6d ]
mamaritz balance $15, sits out
taylor012 balance $5.70, lost $0.50 (folded)
BuckyMetro balance $11.68, didn't bet (folded)

[Iconoclastic]

If I had TT or JJ. I would do like Mengdeezy did but slightly different at the end.

I would represent an AK and raise pot preflop, and fold if reraised, under normal circumstances.

Then if a high card is on flop, I bet pot until river and fold to reraise. If they have high pair they'll call or raise. Otherwise I just stole the pot.

I actually prefer, unlike Meng, a spread with high cards, since I can know right there and then after my bet if I'll win the pot. If I see low cards it's possible they're slow playing a set. And there's no way if there's a low flop that they could have a higher pair since they didn't reraise me preflop.

[Aces]

And there's no way if there's a low flop that they could have a higher pair since they didn't reraise me preflop.

Not true. I've been in plenty of hands w/ TT, JJ, QQ and I raise to $3-$5 and Mr. AA or KK just smooth calls PF. Most people would re-raise, but beware of these guys.

[Fnord]

Here's an example of what NOT to do:

Yeah, I think you had to test that micro-raise on pre-flop if you were going to play your Tens aggressivly. Both to give him a chance to go over-the-top and to get others out of the pot. The more players seeing the pot the less likely it is your pair of Tens will be good. $2 more pre-flop could save you a bigger bet later. Also, the re-raise represents a stronger hand.

Your other option here is to just flat call and fold if you miss the set. This strategy will hold up well in a multi-pot.

[Eric]

I get uneasy when I have Tens and Hooks on full 10 player tables. I know they are great hands but they can be tricky to play. It puts me in the awkward postion of deciding how to play when the over(s) come. That being said, they are great hands when the table starts to get short-handed. Even on a full table they are awesome hands, I just need to get better at knowing how to play them.

People should write about these types of hands in the Poker Thoughts Contest. The details on the http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=503 page.

[Karsk]

Situation I was in last night in a home game with JJ on the button.

raised 2.00, causing heads up with one other who called.
flop comes 3d 4h 10s
checked to me, raise 2.00 by me
called, turn comes 7s
checked to me, raise 2.00 by me
i get reraised 8.25 all in

no straight, possible river flush, no high cards on board. i folded, figuring either a set or bigger pair. should i have called? by my own thoughts today, i should have bet a larger amount off the flop. 4-5 dollars as opposed to the 2 dollars then if called, check and fold if raised. he said he had a flush draw but i'm not sure if i believe it though.. typically doesnt raise unless he has something.