How badly did I play this hand? 89s @ 16NL

[xptboy]

I decided to fold but I REALLY wanted to call lol... Also I'm not sure whether I just played it bad in general, I mean maybe I should've checked behind on turn or flop...
I had no reads on villain since he never showed down his hands yet.
Stats over 40 hands:
VPIP - 18
PR - 13
3B - 0
CBet - 67
Fold to CBet - 50
AFq - 5 (2 on flop, infinite on turn and river)

On flop I cbet and he calls quite fast, so IDK what he has.
On turn I bet again to make sure draws don't get there, but I get check raised. I don't know what does this though because if he had a set or something then he would check/raise the flop or donk bet it or be agressive somehow right? Anyways, for this reason I decide to call but idk prolly should've folded or checked behind...
On river he instashoves literally before I even realize the river is a T so obviously the T is a blank... I mean I know I'd be crazy to call but idk what kind of cards he has to play his hand like this at all. I ended up timing out lol.

PokerStars - $0.16 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $16.28
SB: $17.42
BB: $7.23
UTG: $21.89
MP: $15.76
Hero (CO): $23.75

SB posts SB $0.08, BB posts BB $0.16

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.24) Hero has 8 9

fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.48, fold, SB calls $0.40, BB calls $0.32

Flop: ($1.44, 3 players) 5 3 9
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.80, SB calls $0.80, fold

Turn: ($3.04, 2 players) 4
SB checks, Hero bets $2.20, SB raises to $5.92, Hero calls $3.72

River: ($14.88, 2 players) T
SB bets $10.22 and is all-in, fold

SB wins $14.21

[supa]

Closer to pot on flop. Fold turn.

[MadMojoMonkey]

bet ~$1.00 on flop... check turn

As played, fold turn.

Hero has 2nd pair, shite kicker and is not interested in playing for stacks. When Villain want's to go there, it's an easy fold.

[xptboy]

bet ~$1.00 on flop... check turn

As played, fold turn.

Hero has 2nd pair, shite kicker and is not interested in playing for stacks. When Villain want's to go there, it's an easy fold.

Right, so in this scenario we do not care about what villain thinks our range is and we dont care what villain could possibly doing his with, we let the hand go because it makes no sense and villain's range is polarized into either a complete bluff or a weirdly played set on the flop or 44.

Is this correct?!

[MadMojoMonkey]

Right, so in this scenario we do not care about what villain thinks our range is and we dont care what villain could possibly doing his with[...]

Is this correct?!

The opposite of this, every time.

How badly did you play this hand? It doesn't seem like you put Villain on a range on any street. If so, then pretty bad.

Put Villain on a range. Consider how that range changes with every choice Villain makes.

[xptboy]

The opposite of this, every time.

How badly did you play this hand? It doesn't seem like you put Villain on a range on any street. If so, then pretty bad.

Put Villain on a range. Consider how that range changes with every choice Villain makes.

I put him on a range on every street which is why i was so tempted to call... I mean I could be completely off here, but here is what I thought:

Well preflop he may call with 22+, and most suited overcards.

On the flop, what could he check/call with?
a draw, a set (I think he would c/r or donk a set here though with this board), and small pocket pair or perhaps an A high card that he's calling simply to call a general cbet because he knows I cbet a lot, A9 possibly?

On the turn, he check raises us. This narrows his range down even further to pretty much 55, 33, 99, 44, or a bluff with a missed draw or some completely random hand.

On the river, he instashoved. The T is as good as blank.
He definitely doesn't have an overpair, he def doesn't have A9 as those hands would just check it down and he would've been more agressive with them on the flop.


Now on the flipside what does it look like we have?
Preflop I could have a bunch of hands
On the flop I could just be cbetting with a bunch of hands including a pair or a draw or a lot of things still really
On the turn it looks like I got a decent hand at least, actually TP meh kicker is exactly what it looks like. Me calling his check raise shows weakness.

[DoubleJ]

a couple of things:

1. just like that other hand you posted, you've gone all stoemp avec saucisse when you've flopped top pair. top pair is not a big-pot hand. Like Supa and 3M said, make your cBet, make it big, and if it doesn't take the pot, let it go.

2. you seem to be basing his ranges on PPs to the exclusion of the more-likely drawing hands. Preflop he'd prolly 3Bet with premium PPs, and set mining w/ mid-to-small PPs is a dubious call for him here as your CO range is so wide.

[OngBonga]

Meh this isn't awful, dunno what the worry is. Flop bet could be more, but then again if he's snap calling weak hands that fold to bigger bets, then it's fine. Turn I'm not checking behind because we have top pair + flush draw and villain still has lots of overcards + spade draw combos that we can get value from.

As for the c/r, it's real close. It's a fold when analysed, but I prob estimate we're good to call at the table. We're getting near direct drawing odds if we stack him every time we hit a clean river. But this assumes a) he never has better clubs, b) he's shoving any river, or at least calling a shove, and c) we have the discipline to fold 100% when it's a river 5c, 8 or 9. If we know he's capable of bluffing, this improves our equity somewhat, but we don't assume an unknown takes a line this strong as a bluff without actually seeing him do something similar first.
Since we can't be sure of these factors, just fold. But like I say, I prob make the call because I don't have the time to analyse the hand enough, and I estimate it's close enough to not be a massive leak if it's -ev.

River is obviously a fold.

[kickass]

Don't Chk behind turn you results orientated fucks! Turn is prolly a fold.

[DoubleJ]

'ello mate

yeh, i haven't got a problem raising Turn for value w/ a flush draw, but the problem is that OP isn't raising Turn for value w/ a flush draw: he's raising to protect his busto top pair.

accidentally doing the right thing for the wrong reason is gonna be damaging in the long run...

just out of interest, what're yous guys giving Villain for ranges here?

[Hoopy]

Bigger bets with your value hands, smaller with bluffs. Don't need to be deceptive at these stakes.

It all depends on what range you think he's check raising here, get Pokerstove if you don't already and run some ranges against our hand.

Then figure out the pot odds we're being offered + how much of his stack could we win on the river. Is it profitable to call?

Do this and you'll improve.

[OngBonga]

I disagree with both posts above to a degree.

When we bet the turn, which we should, we're not doing it "to protect busto top pair", we're betting for value with our top pair vs villain's draws. We don't know it's busto until he raises the turn bet.

And hoopy's bigger bets for value smaller bets with draws, this is an excellent way to get owned by semi-competent villains. And even if villain is not paying attention to bet sizing, this encourages bad habits for when we are playing against competent villains. Don't be the donk who turns his draws face up with small bets and plays his value hands face up by betting big. Bet the same on the turn with AKcc as 98cc or 99 or anything else you feel like betting, as this makes it more difficult for villains to put you on a range. The rest on hoopy's post is on the money.

I give villain a strong range here when he raises turn, 33 44 55 99 A2ss, I need more info on him to give him wider. When he c/c flop he has lots of spade draws + overs, and 66-88 as well.

[Icanhastreebet]

I give villain a strong range here when he raises turn, 33 44 55 99 A2ss, I need more info on him to give him wider. When he c/c flop he has lots of spade draws + overs, and 66-88 as well.

There is no way villain c/snap calls the flop w/ 33/55/99. I have seen SO few people c/snap a street with the nuts on an even fairly draw heavy board. The fact that villain gives no consideration to raising is such a huge tell and ignoring the fact that hero said he snap called is a huge error in my opinion.

[DoubleJ]

...ignoring the fact that hero said he snap called is a huge error in my opinion.

OP didn't say "snap call" the flop, Yaaawn - he said villain called quite fast.

he could easily do that with legit drawing hands - AsXs, 76s.

i don't understand how we can call with 9 outs and only 3:1 pot odds. I can't see him putting anymore $$$ in on a Club river, so we have only exp. odds.

This is really fascinating - thanks xptboy!

[Icanhastreebet]

OP didn't say "snap call" the flop, Yaaawn - he said villain called quite fast.

he could easily do that with legit drawing hands - AsXs, 76s.

i don't understand how we can call with 9 outs and only 3:1 pot odds. I can't see him putting anymore $$$ in on a Club river, so we have only exp. odds.

This is really fascinating - thanks xptboy!

? If he has AsXs then the turn is certainly a call. I doubt villain calls 76s pre but I guess it's possible. I guess we do need to win ~6$ on the river. Iunno if he's as nutty as everyone thinks he is do you really think villain will fold for 6$ more or not shove himself on a backdoor club river?

[DoubleJ]

? If he has AsXs then the turn is certainly a call

sorry, i don't understand you here...what do you mean?

[Icanhastreebet]

I'd have trouble folding the river here solely based on the flop timing unless I've seen him call quickly w/ the nuts before. Also since since he snapped shoved the river he's obviously somewhat spastic. It's just so hard for him to have the nuts here unless he has exactly like 44.




edit: I mean this is my argument for calling, it's probably still a fold(Unless we know he's spastic and very aggressive/floaty) but I def would not fold the turn right away cause it's all very suspicious and we have 9 outs a lot. Saying it's OMG EASY TURN/RIVER FOLD is silly because it actually isn't as easy as most of you make it sound and maybe some of you should work on "putting villain on a range" like you told the OP to do when he's the only one who took the time to tank the river because the villain does look full of shit.

[OngBonga]

The fact that villain gives no consideration to raising...

This guy checked, so he's absorbed the flop and might have already decided to snap call any bet. I see all sorts of retarded shit, like villain snap calling a set to showdown on wet boards etc.

I don't think he has a set. I think he has A2ss or 67ss (missed the latter in my range above) but I don't discount sets based on flop snap call because I see sets snap call vs the raiser, even on tt flops.

[The Bean Counter]

If I'm being disciplined, it's almost never incorrect to fold to a turn raise in the micros unless you know villain to be a maniac (as much as the timing tells make me want to call).

I think you should bet bigger on the flop for value slash protection and bet turn for value. Turn is a bet/call imo as villain is almost always shoving the river if our backdoor flush comes in.

[The Bean Counter]

I had no reads on villain since he never showed down his hands yet.
Stats over 40 hands:

You really should have some reads on villain after 40 hands, even if you haven't seen him go to showdown.

[kmind]

Def close. If he has a set or straight on turn and we get his stack every time a club hits river and fold on every other card then we need to call turn (slightly +EV) because of the turn raise size. If it's bigger then we need to fold.

But the key here is if we get his stack everytime a club hits and then most importantly, is his turn range really just a set/straight? As mentioned above probably not. My post basically doesn't help but whatever.

[daven]

villain pretty much has A2/67 a lot of the time after his turn play, well, some other stuff too - but i don't think he has much that you beat and he's paying if you hit the river flush. Fold river, nh

[Fnord]

I don't think call vs fold the turn matters much. I'd probably just go ahead and call because our backdoor flush draw will very rarely be counterfeited.

River is a really easy fold.