88 on the button, a raiser and caller.

[ed cooper]

thought i could see a flop at least and then go from there...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 6.5 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 (t2680)
MP1 (t1520)
MP2 (t1455)
CO (t1745)
Hero (Button) (t1410)
SB (t1530)
BB (t1990)
UTG (t1170)

Hero's M: 18.80

Preflop: Hero is Button with ,
UTG bets t150, 3 folds, CO calls t150, Hero calls t150, 2 folds

Flop: (t525) , , (3 players)
UTG bets t250, 1 fold, hero???

and this is how it transpired. i guess this is one of the better flops for me. shove here or call and see what happens on the turn?

[taipan168]

With less than 10x BB you need to shove or fold this hand, and depending on reads I would most probably shove it. If you were in the SB you could make it 450 to go and shove any flop though. Calling is the worst option here because overcards come most of the time with 88 and you won't know what to do.

As played, definitely shove it, again calling is the worst option because you don't give UTG a chance to fold if he missed this flop.

[Fielmann]

Pre: Well you don't have less than 10xBB but you do have less than 10x the amount you need to call and this does make it a push/fold situation most of the time.
I'd fold it. UTG needs to be opening remarkably wide for a shove to profitable.

Flop: Snapshove. Villain is c-betting two overcards most of the time. You definitely don't want to just call and see a turn card that hits his range.

[taipan168]

Oops, you're right, sorry I missed that blinds were 25/50. I would still shove it though rather than flatting

[Nakamura]

I'd be surprised if this was a shove PF.

[james273]

I would reraise him pre flop. Make it 450 and he wont be so eager to fire on the flop if he has missed. If he re reraises pre flop you are not commited and can make an easy fold.
Just looks like a continuation bet to me on the flop. Could have a hand like A-10.. At least with the reraise you will find out where you are at. Flat calling with mid pairs in a turbo is not something i like to do. You are bound to flop something you dont like the look of. Over cards, draws and paired boards.

[taipan168]

Hi and welcome to FTR, it's good to have you here.

I would reraise him pre flop. Make it 450 and he wont be so eager to fire on the flop if he has missed. If he re reraises pre flop you are not commited and can make an easy fold.

So we make it 450 to go preflop. What happens if one of them shoves over? We just fried almost a third of our stack. What happens if one or both of them flats and overcards come on the flop and somebody bets? To me, re-raising less than AI is the worst of all possible options. If we were first to act we could make it 450 to go and then shove any flop, but since we're in position this option isn't open to us.

Just looks like a continuation bet to me on the flop. Could have a hand like A-10.. At least with the reraise you will find out where you are at.

Betting to see "where you're at" is not a good reason to bet. Besides, considering the chips already in the pot, our only real option is to shove over, and I'd shove over as a value bet (ie. because I believe we have the best hand on the flop). Also, if we have to shove over there's no "seeing where we're at" because we're already AI.

I'd be surprised if this was a shove PF.

Even with the flat caller? Not sure if Wiz can run situations like this. I see your point though, could go either way.

[ed cooper]

putting the initial raiser on 99+, aq+, aq s +, and the 1st caller on sth similar, wiz demands qq/kk + from us, tweakage according.

i know my odds werent quite right, but do we not get extra value to call being as though a player has called previous to us?

from memory, the raiser seemed like a good player. i understand there are going to be scare cards on the flop, but is he not more exploitable playing it like this, rather than just shoving it and flipping? after all, most times he ll miss the flop and he wouldnt be committed to calling his cbet if i reraised.

perhaps my logic is twisted.

- thanks

[baudib]

At least with the reraise you will find out where you are at.

please don't raise for information.

[Nakamura]

putting the initial raiser on 99+, aq+, aq s +, and the 1st caller on sth similar, wiz demands qq/kk + from us, tweakage according.

i know my odds werent quite right, but do we not get extra value to call being as though a player has called previous to us?

from memory, the raiser seemed like a good player. i understand there are going to be scare cards on the flop, but is he not more exploitable playing it like this, rather than just shoving it and flipping? after all, most times he ll miss the flop and he wouldnt be committed to calling his cbet if i reraised.

perhaps my logic is twisted.

- thanks

As I understand it, you are suggesting shoving over a c-bet? The profitability of this play would depend on his c-bet % and c-bet and fold to shove %. EDIT: what also springs to mind is shoving over the top of a c-bet generally forces our opponent to play correctly. He'll generally fold all the hands you beat and felt the ones that beat you!

The extra player changes things though. He can create a nuisance by calling a c-bet on a K63 rainbow flop. Then what do you do? Shove over both??? You should also consider most decent players will not c-bet OOP 3-way without a hand.

As Taipan says, make your life easy and fold or shove.

Regarding betting for information, it's easy to get confused as to why we bet. When we bet we usually bet for protection or value. If we get reraised, then the byproduct is information and we can use that information to make a fold. Make sure you aren't just betting for information!