10nl- 2 Awkward Spots

[clvacva]

Hand 1
Don't remember why I called I would usually fold. No reads on opponent this is his 3rd hand dealt.

Flop c/r for value versus a bunch onepair hands and draws. When he flats I take out 99,TT,QQ,KK,AA,straights because they probably b/3bet.

Turn he could have picked up a draw with hands like KQ,QJ or a pair with AJ, Only hand that improved was AQ or AT.
Still a value bet.
Although I should have bet way bigger.

River everything but the flush got there.
c/f right?


$0.05/$0.10 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($12.35)
UTG+1 ($10.75)
CO ($9.90)
BTN ($16.15)
Hero ($10.15)
BB ($12.05)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is SB
2 folds, CO raises to $0.30, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.70, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.30, Hero raises to $1.40, CO calls $1.10

Turn: ($3.50, 2 players)
Hero bets $2.10, CO calls $2.10

River: ($7.70, 2 players)
Hero ($6.35)?

Hand 2)
UTG is a fishy 31/18.
With limpers I decided that 3betting to take the pot down was best. Have no idea what the propper size should be. $2.00+?
Limpers have weak hands. UTG's does not necesaryly have a strong hand since he is not positionally aware.
If called a cbet can take down the pot and a pair of aces on the flop could be the best hand when there calling ranges include hands like KQ,KJ,QT,77,98s etc.
On the flop I bet to fold out better ace highs or a pair of 44,55,66.
Turn I hit a pair and decided that he is bad enough to have 78,77,spades that can call so I shoved for thin value I guess.

6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($27.05)
UTG+1 ($10)
CO ($12.30)
BTN ($10.25)
Hero ($10)
BB ($10)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is SB
UTG raises to $0.30, UTG+1 calls $0.30, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.30, Hero raises to $1.75, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.45, UTG+1 folds, BTN folds

Flop: ($4.20, 2 players)
Hero bets $2.50, UTG calls $2.50

Turn: ($9.20, 2 players)
Hero goes all-in $5.75, UTG calls $5.75

River: ($20.70, 2 players, 1 all-in)

[surviva316]

i know you say that you don't remember why you called in hand one, but preflop is just so so bad. as played, we can c/f. we beat nothing and 10nlers (both fish and regs) seldom bluff shove rivers on a board where you never have nothing.

hand 2, i'm not a big fan of preflop. you should give reads on the other players in the pot, but we're just not very often taking the pot down with a stationy looking fish opening and two callers. if both of the flatters are wannabe tagg/setmining fish they do have super weak ranges, but i'm just not a big fan of 3b bluffing 38/18's OOP when they're opening UTG without reads. i know he's not positionally aware, but we can be sure he's prolly not opening UTG any wider than 18% whereas if he's OTB there's at least the possibility he's stealing.

as played, the 3b sizing is quite humongous. i wouldn't ever squeeze bluff here more than 1.40. if they wanna set mine and c/f most flops against our weak holding getting like 9:1, then be our guest.

[Donachello]

Agreed with surviva. Hand one is pretty meh all around. It's hands like these that can really send a session south when you get involved with weak cards and hit a "good" but extremely tainted hand on the flop. Based on his play I'd have to put him on either KQ or QJ and in both cases you are crushed hard.

Hand 2 is once again a fold preflop for me, maybe a limp if I think I have a reasonable range/image vs them. As played the 3bet is monster, something more like 1.20-1.30 would do if you are going to 3bet. With such a big 3bet you are basically subconsciously committing yourself to the pot regardless of what cards come up. And if you're going to barrel him off with the flop cbet you might as well make it upwards of 3.25+. 2.50 is barely more than half the pot and yet because of your 3bet pre you are now essentially both pot committed. Especially at micros where everyone is basically like "well... half my money is in the pot I might as well call with my 2 outer." He's gotta have 10x or a straight draw here almost every time.

[clvacva]

oh snap 3bet size was to big. I made it so big because I was OOP but I could settle with 1.40-1.50

I looked up the notes on villain and he had oppened A4o UTG so that may sway surviva into liking the 3bet a little more.

I rarely every squeeze/3betlight was trying it out thus the sucky 3bet size and post flop play.
A9s looked good enough to do it with.

First hand I agree with u guys.

[surviva316]

if anything, flop bet is too big. yeah it's a wet board, but villain doesn't know shit about hand reading based on bet size, and SPR is so F'ed in this hand that we're gonna 1/2 PSB flop, shove turn so often here.

turn seems like a pure range/pokerstove/math exercise.

the A4o hand UTG doesn't much change my mind about wanting to squeeze in this spot.

[shallam]

---Hand #1-----------

I don't like your PF call.

I like the strong flop and turn bets. However by the turn I'm starting to be more worried that I am beat.

By the river I hate the hand. You HAD a very nice hand, but now your hand stinks. I can't think of a rational that you can beat. (busted flush draw maybe?).

I would check, hope he checks or makes a very small bet. If he only has a better two pair he might very well check himself. I would fold to a largish bet despite what might look like pot odds to call. I think you just got unlucky on this hand and got drawn out on. The T/R cards were about as bad as they could be. Check and hope he checks.


Your hands stinks save your money.


If he has the balls to bluff on a board like that he deserves the money. If you try to play sheriff on board like that you are going to lose a LOTof money in the long rung.

[PhilMC]

You should definitely stop playing such shitty hands OOP...
Hand 1: On flop I would make it like 2, 2.10... but without any reads, I am likely to give on the turn, his range literally crushes you and he is not going anywhere...
Hand 2: 3betting PF OOP w/ A9s is a pretty bad idea most of the time... I wouldnt recommend you to do stuff like that very often

[shallam]

-------Hand #2----


Some would refer to this PF strategy as a "squeeze play". The basic idea is that you have a very agg initial raiser and at least one caller. In this scenario you have enough knowledge about their past play to determine extremely wide hand ranges, for both players. Thus, it is likely that both players are putting money in the pot very light. The squeeze play then involves a big PFR resulting in both players folding. You take down the pot PF. I suspect that you would want to have a pretty tight image and also have opps with some sophistication so that they comprehend what hand you are representing (QQ+, AK). I consider the squeeze play to be a sophisticated play, one that is effective amongst pros. I don't like the play at the level I play since my opps play too loose which makes value betting a better strategy than bluffing.

I would note that the squeeze play did not work in that UTG called. You then turned your hand into a bluff. You made significant bets with no real hand and no real draw on the flop and a very modest hand on the turn. I'm not sure wether the turn shove was a value bet or a bluff. Is this guy really fishy enough to call with a hand weaker than yours ?!


Frankly I don't like the play on any betting round. Preflop I would argue that the Gap Concept applies. While I might PFR w A9s first in, I don't like ReR because the hand simply isn't strong enough. Even in position I don't like the play. I would usually fold, but I can see an argument for calling -- especially given that your open raiser is agg and therefore likely has a wide opening range. With a few more callers or a min raise I would certainly call. Calling/folding PF I think is marginal. Since you missed the flop you can check and fold without much damage.

On the flop, you have put yourself in a tough spot. Your hand is now a bluff and you are playing a loose opp, out of position. Having put myself in this position I would almost certainly make a C-bet here. About half the time I'd be inclined to make a modest C-bet intended to give my opp an excuse to fold. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/3 the pot (0.75 or so). Then of course it is a good idea to have this play in your repertoirre when you have a very strong hand as well for balance. The other 50% of the time I'd make a very strong bet from 1/2 to the full size of the pot. But I wouldn't like it -- since I have no hand.

When your opp calls I would shut down on the turn. Here on the turn we can add a very rich board to the weak hand, loose opp and flop call factors that were already working against you. Checking makes you vulnerable to a bluff - but betting here is just spew. It is worth noting that this such a rich board, even if your opp has a crappy hand like QT he has you beat and you will loose the rest of your stack if you get called. Our opp loose profile and the rich board are now working against us. You choose to move all in, certainly a very agg optimistic and also very risky move. I don't like bluffing opp who I know to be very loose.

You say your turn bet is a thin value bet --- what hand that you can beat is calling you here ? Even 77 has you beat ! While your previous play is a little bit agg for my tastes, it's really your turn play that seems spewy to me.

What I would take away from this hand is the concept "Big hand big pot, little hand little pot" (aka, pot control). You violated this rule by making a huge pot with a tiny hand. Why not wait for a bigger hand to make this move ?

If you won this hand you are VERY fortunate -- most of the time I would expect you to have lost your entire stack. Unfortunate given that you probably should have folded PF.


A9s is a good hand when there are a ton of limpers. You are looking to hit a 9s, A & 9, or of course a flush. Otherwise check and fold the flop.

[shallam]

Hand #1----thinking outside the box


I don't recommend the following move but I think it's worth kicking around as an idea. See my real recommendation above.

What would happen if you went all in ? Consider how that might look to your thinking opps. If it were me I would put you on a K for a straight and fold all of my two pair hands and maybe a set.

[clvacva]

Hand 1
I kind of did a dumb thing and decided to blockbet 2dollars. However when he folded I realized that nothing worse can could really call. Maybe A7etc.
bleh

Hand 2
Shallam I kind of agree that betting the turn is spew but his range is bad wide enough to have 8x, I am ahead of 77 on the turn and he could have 2spades and decide to gamboool. Anyways he had Kd8d.

[surviva316]

turn seems like a pure range/pokerstove/math exercise.

this never really got addressed, so i'll just come out and say that i think that shoving this turn is fine. the fact that he showed up with K8s i think gives me a "told you so" on squeezing as a bluff against described villain, and goes to show that his range is wider than you might expect here. so he has a lot of 8x hands and draws and missed overs on top of his Tx and rare sets (and 98s). i think it's pretty close because the 9 completed a lot of the straight draws we coulda hoped to have gotten value from.

i think this spot is a really tough one from a theoretical stand point because it's not quite a vbet (as in we have >50% equity against his calling range) and it's not quite a bluff (as in the ratio of FE is greater than our pot odds), and it's kinda something in between. i've found that we will get ourselves in this type of spot a lot when we're OOP and NOT on the river. basically, we'd much rather shove ourselves, than c/c; and the combination of our equity against his calling range and our FE is enough to make putting the money in +EV, so we don't wanna c/f (assuming he's capable of betting here a lot); and he has a lot of hands that we beat that we can either protect against or get value from that we're not going to get any more money from if we check turn, bet river, so just sticking the money in just seems like the best option. it's kind of a combination of a value bet and a protection bet.

just to clarify, i didn't actual do all the maffs for this specific spot, and the fact that the 9 completed draws for QJ and 76s (which are hands we could otherwise be value towning) makes this a lot closer, but i intuit that shoving here is our best option in spite of the fact that it's not a pure value bet.

[spoonitnow]

Why the fuck are people talking about limping going on in hand 2?