Isoing da fishies

[JKDS]

This is a relatively new concept to me and im giving it a shot. The guy im playing in both hands is, obv, a fishy! I have him as a 26/5/1.5/1 (vpp/pfr/af/3b%) over 500ish and enjoys limping and playing somewhat passive poker postflop. So im in position both times and want to fuck him up.

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
7 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($26.18)
UTG+1 ($24.97)
MP ($26.20)
CO ($4.65)
BTN ($28.58)
SB ($18.16)
Hero ($25)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 7 players) Hero is BB
5 folds, SB calls $0.15, Hero raises to $1.25, SB calls $1

I cant really value bet when i hit TP type hands, so i dont have too much value when i check instead of betting. with that in mind, mr limp/call fold would give me more money if i raise instead and own hiim post. with initiative, i can see some value here, so im gonna raise and expect a call or fold most of the time, with him calling with most of his completing range

Flop: ($2.50, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2, SB calls $2

I have more kings and pairs in my range, villain has shit most of the time, cbet time

Turn: ($6.50, 2 players)
SB bets $2, Hero raises to $6.25, SB calls $4.25

when he calls, i dont really expect him to play a king like this all that often. im expecting either a "your fos, i call" type of hand with something like broadways or sb's, pairs 22-88 of course (not sets), diamond draws, and 4x.

So here, he makes a 1/3 pot bet against me when ive previously not had an overly aggressive image. If he had a king/set, i wouldnt expect a c/c followed by a 1/3psb, it just seems like a very weird plan so i dont see these here at all. Im thinking diamond draws, turned club draws, probbing middleish pairs, and "your fos" broadways still. Against this range, he cant really continue with much to any action, and i have a hand with little value, so raise!

He calls, the smaller pairs (4x, anything less than 77) are likely gone. again, if he was slowplaying like Kx, or sets i wouldnt really expect a c/c, 1/3pot /call type of line at all. it doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me. So now his range is heavly weighted with flush draws and like....88 or 99.

River: ($19, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero ($15.5)?

ha, i river a pair. ar ar.

checking river is consistent with the weakness ive seen before...but its also consistent with a diamond draw completing and getting tricky. i dont get value from those middle pairs anymore, nor busted club draws, so check it back good?

whatcha think? spew? well played jkds? what is this?

[kmind]

I think it's ok. I think you should cbet smaller based on preflop stats but I'd still like to hear more on his postflop play. River I'd check back.

Since this is a new concept to you, you say that you can't value bet with TP. Usually you can even vs. this player. But also realize how you easily can vs. the normal 60/4/x guys as they are playing worse Qx and 9x hands so your preflop raise can actually be for value.

[XTR1000]

I think it´s close and depending on his postflop tendencies, vs someone who´s folding preflop rather than postflop I may check pre and def checked Q9s. To justify isoing you´d need an idea of his postflop tendencies and from your read it´s not clear whether he folds too much or peels too much. In case he´s in the fit or fold camp I see no reason to continue after he calls flop, if he peels a lot he still must have some sort of a hand to donk lead the turn. His line looks like nonsense, but he clearly has some interest in this hand. River is clearly a check as you´d never fold out Kx or AQ and will get c/r´ed sometimes.

[JKDS]

@extra info concerning reads: He is a fit or fold from what ive seen at the time. He donks occasionally, as well as c/c followed by a pot lead but there isnt much info on what these mean other than the expected c/f being the most common.

@kmind: hrm, i didnt really look at that. We're not both gonna have Qx a whole lot and when we do i wont be behind every time, but when i do flop tp i can still get value out of any draws or middlish pairs he has in his range. good point, thx

@xtr: this was part of the reason for posting this specific example actually, im not entirely sure where the borderline hands are. Things like JTo and like, 87s wouldnt gain much from raising as a bluff and could actually lose value when we're c/r-ed or even when villain folds, but hands like Q9o are kind of weird. I see that i can get some more value than i previously thought out of flopping a pair or draw, so this might even be a check behind hand too...dunno.

Combining with what Kmind said, i get that i might actually even be value raising pre too against a guy that likes to limp call so lol.

thx for the advice xt

[Juice®]

I don't mind the raise pre, but I hate the raise on the turn since you only beat a bluff and he doesn't seem to want to go away. He's got Ax, Kx, all pairs, sets, and combo draws in his range. FWIW, I'm checking behind on the river here because I'm not sure worse hands are calling too often.

[JKDS]

Ok, so i think i got all i could out of the first hand so i want to go on to the second.

Results: Hero Checks and villain shows AcJc for a turned flush draw and my rivered pair is goot.

Other results:

-Villains c/c, bet like 1/3pot seems to be a "i dun berieve you, i call...o snap i got outs now" kind of thing.

-Villain is tilting the fuck out in chat

-A few hands later i isoed with T9o (good?) and he limp/3bet shoved on me for his remaining like $8 or so. I fold of course.

So its pretty clear hes a little frustrated by me to say the least

Like 3 hands after that or so, we get this hand...(elapsed time from first hand is <1 orbit or so...and villain is obv the same guy)

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
7 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($28.58)
UTG+1 ($10.26)
JKDS ($32.22)
CO ($24.65)
BTN ($24.97)
SB ($26.30)
BB ($4.65)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 7 players) JKDS is MP
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, JKDS raises to $1.25, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls $1

Heh, he hasnt stopped limping that 25% or so range...though he is playing back a lil'. I have AQo now, and im raising for value and intend to call a shove by villain.

Ok he calls. I think he'd still tilt shove most of the top part of his range (like KQ), but hes opening like {TT+, AQ+} so he cant really have those too often. His calling range then is likely to be (imo of course) {weaker broadways, middleish pairs, Ax (x<Ten or so), K9, and maybe some suited connectors}

Flop: ($2.85, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, JKDS bets $2, UTG+1 calls $2

Flop comes, he checks. He's tilting, so i expect him to actually call with most of his range here,...but my Ahi is likely good and i dont want him to control the betting. I have initiative, so im gonna bet here and hope i can keep the pot small in the process (by like, checking turns or doing some block bets depending on what comes).
Bet like $2 seem good? Or is this plan terrible and i should just be checking? IMO, i think hed be more inclined to c/r than c/c Jx here, and even more likely to just donk bet it.

Turn: ($6.85, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, JKDS checks

Well, plan success, hes not all of a sudden folding to a 2d so lets follow through and check.

Other option is to bet like 3ish here and hopefully get a river check, but i feel hes more likely to c/r here than on the flop and i dont want to have to fold here

River: ($6.85, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $6.85, JKDS calls $6.85 ...

Wat? I dont really see alot of Jx in your range here, i think you'd be c/raising or just plain raising your premiums pre so QQ+ is out, so his range is then busted draws, hands hes spite called flop (cuz im fos all the time of course), and medium pairs he's turning into a bluff. Given his state of mind and how he cant really have anything hes value shoving, and he can easily think that im fos again, i want to call.....

Spew?

[kfaess]

hmm I think the fact that he's getting this frustrated with you is a really good sign for your game..

For hand 2:
I like the iso, obv. If he shoved pf I would call as well, that seems fine. However, I think your flop/turn reasoning might need some tweaks. One point against c-betting the flop is that if he c/r us with any jack, I think we have no choice but to fold. If he's thinking at all at this point then why would he donk the flop with a jack when he knows we're aggressive and will cbet a large % of the time at which point he can c/r?

Is initiative really important in this case? I've always thought of initiative as being related to us putting bets in with the threat to put even more bets in. We take the initiative on the flop and turn in normal circumstances because when we bet in position, our opponent is forced to react to us and he won't really have a good idea of what the final pot size will be. We're completely in control of that and are able to put pressure on him/check back if we choose.

In this case, though, we don't expect him to fold often to our flop bet and we expect him to raise a certain % of the time. He doesn't really care how big the pot balloons to since he's on tilt. So I'm not sure I would use initiative as a reason to cbet.

If we're going for a pot control line it seems to me like checking the flop > checking the turn. Also, if you expect him to be calling the flop bet with almost his entire range and you think A hi is good here, then how can we not barrel the turn after our flop cbet? The only reasons I can think of for not barreling the turn are that you expect him to fire river bluffs when you check back often, or you expect him to bluff raise the turn bet enough to make the barrel unprofitable.

I agree that the J on river is a great card for you. I don't expect many J's to be in his range, as you said. The only thing I worry about here is how often he's turning a pp into a bluff. Since you checked the turn though, he has his entire range here that he had after the flop check. This combined with the fact that he's tilting and wants to win a pot off you make this a call??

Try posting some specific ranges to see if that clears up the reasoning maybe.

In any case, I'm basically just thinking out loud throughout this post so please don't take anything I said as definitely correct. I'm interested to see what some of the more experienced players think about this hand.