~~ WW Halloween Dead Thread ~~

[StillDeadMoney]

[JKDS]

wait what?

[lolzzz_321]

I had to make a friendly edit to one of your posts, JKDS

[JKDS]

AH HA FOUND IT!

and i could swear it was a 13...ah well my mistake. woulda came out a lil earlier had i known...but w/e we got a zombie.

[Warpe]

I still got the mojo.

[lolzzz_321]

Alright quick reminder not to talk strat/anythingaboutthisspecificgame here but you can talk game mechanics.

[DoanDiggy]

So the vig shoots before the alpha recruits, no?

[bode]

its sad that even with spenda's weak defense of himself he still got 1/2 the votes rescinded.

[Stacks]

I love you guys!

[GatorJH]

I love you guys!

lol

[Keith]

arghhhhhhh just typed up a long defence as well......

[GatorJH]

its sad that even with spenda's weak defense of himself he still got 1/2 the votes rescinded.

I only rescinded because of the "if stacks is a zombie Spenda most likely isn't" argument.

You get one early in this game, I got one early in last game. Us old people know how to do this!!!

Well done Old Man Warpe, well done.

[kiwiMark]

So correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like every night we lynch a zombie, we don't get a medium, so the zombies can recruit somebody, with the exception of the slight chance of the angel protecting who they pick.
Which means every morning after lynching a zombie, we wake up and there are the same number of zombies in our village. So we have to not only lynch one of the two zombies, but also successfully shoot the other (again, a somewhat slim chance) on the same night, to win?

Jaysus.

[JKDS]

makes it fun imo.

[GatorJH]

and unless I am missing something shouldn't the game be over?

[Penneywize]

and unless I am missing something shouldn't the game be over?

shhhh dont jinx it bud.

[Stacks]

So who's gonna be the lucky individual to put a bullet in my head?

[lolzzz_321]

alpha recruits before vig shoots, also take a look at the halloween special rule for the alpha

also, there will always be an alpha zombie, so gl village

[Stacks]

alpha recruits before vig shoots, also take a look at the halloween special rule for the alpha

also, there will always be an alpha zombie, so gl village

imo

[Pelion]

alpha recruits before vig shoots

So how the hell do we win? Even if we lynch one and shoot the other we still have to protect the totally random right person aswell? Thats pretty ridiculous.

[DoanDiggy]

I like these rules. This should be a good one! Gogogo alpha and vig!

[StillDeadMoney]

Only a few scenarios where the village gains ground against the zombies (or holds it, which favors the village because they outnumber the zombies so the number of zombie votes reaches 0 first):

1- villager hung, recruitment blocked (by the angel or medium), vig shoots zombie = -1 votes for villagers and zombies
2- zombie hung, zombie recruited, vig shoots zombie = -1 votes for villagers and zombies
3- zombie hung, recruitment blocked (by the angel), vig shoots villager = -1 votes for villagers and zombies
4- zombie hung, recruitment blocked (by the angel), vig shoots zombie = -2 votes for the zombies

Every other scenario has the zombies gaining ground against the village. The above 4 scenarios all involve a lot of luck on the village's part, as well.

[kiwiMark]

alpha recruits before vig shoots

So how the hell do we win? Even if we lynch one and shoot the other we still have to protect the totally random right person aswell? Thats pretty ridiculous.

This. And without a medium it's not like we've got very high chances of protecting said right person.

[Stacks]

The plot thickens.

[StillDeadMoney]

almost forgot:

5- zombie hung, recruitment blocked (by the angel), vig does not shoot or shoots a protected villager = -1 vote for the zombies

[a500lbgorilla]

I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around there always being an alpha zombie. But, that won't matter. Since we'll all be eventually recruited and therefor be on the winning team!

[a500lbgorilla]

why is it that the seer had to post openly about who he found and couldn't simply pm the vig with the target? Y'know, to balance out the immortal recruiting power of the wolves and avoid having the alpha sacrifice himself grabbing 2 wolf recruits?

Trip, man, these rules seem gay. I really hope the wolves recruit me. Because the village can't win. If the wolves get more than 3 people, it's basically game over with a perpetual alpha.

[bigspenda73]

i dont want to hear it, the rules were awful for the zombies before the alpha thing surfaced

[a500lbgorilla]

lol, you're right. They were horrible with you're recruiting power cut to 2/3rds on days when villagers are lynched!

My bad, game on! You guys totally deserve a 95% winning percentage for surviving 2 days under false pretenses.

[a500lbgorilla]

The super angel vrs an infinite alpha is not a balanced fight

[a500lbgorilla]

Just let the alpha sac himself, making 2 normal zombos. Then let the village hunt them down. Drop the supa-angel, the medium and lets just run it out like a normal WW.

2 wolves have done it against incredible odds before. And it's not like the 2 days already past will help us find them.

[Stacks]

lol, you're right. They were horrible with you're recruiting power cut to 2/3rds on days when villagers are lynched!

Lol if you think this is the only thing we had going against us.

[a500lbgorilla]

go on

[JKDS]

they had a competent seer that would find little things and wtf pwn identify zombies like no other amirite???

[kiwiMark]

I think there's a 0.0001% chance that spenda's a zombie

AMIRITE

[Pelion]

I am the seer and spenda is not a wolf

yeah.... something like that :P

[Stacks]

Sorry, but can't right now. Most probably know what I'm referring to, but if not, I don't want it to affect gameplay.

[JKDS]

pshh WHATEV. it was good logic!

[Stacks]

I think there's a 0.0001% chance that spenda's a zombie

Wrong...

I am the seer and spenda is not a wolf

Wrong...

I AM THE BATMAN AND STAX IS A WOLF

???

[a500lbgorilla]

Sorry, but can't right now. Most probably know what I'm referring to, but if not, I don't want it to affect gameplay.

Alright, anyone from the "most" side of things wanna explain?

[JKDS]

psh, who'd thunk you'd go all willy nilly attacking your comrades when it wasnt even known theyred be an infinite alpha yet?

and i AM the batman

[JKDS]

http://tinyurl.com/dabatman

[Keith]

Just let the alpha sac himself, making 2 normal zombos. Then let the village hunt them down. Drop the supa-angel, the medium and lets just run it out like a normal WW.

2 wolves have done it against incredible odds before. And it's not like the 2 days already past will help us find them.

THIS....if theres always an alpha I can't see how the village can ever win without the medium permanently blocking conversions then the next day lynching a villager to get the medium back then shooting a wolf every other night.
Just let the special rule kick in allowing the sacrifice and 2 new zombies and drop the alpha wolf/medium/angel of death.whilst interesting the math didnt work and rules seem to be made to try and force it back to a fair fight but end up taking it too far the other way.

[kiwiMark]

If the super angel of supertown can defend himself indefinitely, then the village seems to always win, albeit only by extreme luck or shooting villagers one-by-one until there are two villagers left: A zombie with nobody left to recruit, and Mr Badass Angel himself.
Kinda lame?

[a500lbgorilla]

The village cant always win based on the angels ability to survive the entire time because the wolves number can never diminish. Consider that we hit this one out of the park through 2 days and we're still going to lose.

[a500lbgorilla]

Even if we knew who the 2 new wolves were, if 1 were the alpha, we would likely lose?

We'd lynch wolf 1, they'd recruit a new 1 over night, then day 2 we'd lynch the other. Even if we knew who the 3rd were, when we shoot him at night, the 4th appears. Then we'd have to know the 4th and lynch him the next day to win.

cliffs, we're 3 days of perfect villager play away from winning at this point.

[kiwiMark]

The village cant always win based on the angels ability to survive the entire time because the wolves number can never diminish. Consider that we hit this one out of the park through 2 days and we're still going to lose.

The wolves number can diminish, because eventually they run of villagers to recruit. That's what I was driving for with "lame".

[lolzzz_321]

Meh, I didn't balance things well at all. I just kind of wanna redo this one and do a more more classic alpha ones.

If not, we can keep this game running and do something like 'rilla suggested and let the alpha choose 2 or 3 non alpha zombies.

Lol @ spenda complaining

[Stacks]

Meh.. I'm fine with whatever.. I'll either be dead tomorrow, and not care. Or start up another game. But only if I can be the alpha and everyone must play dumb until at least Night 5.

[a500lbgorilla]

I think we could toss all the names back in the hat and start fresh

[bigred]

i say do the 2 player conversion and let the thing playout, there's always another ww game to play after

[Warpe]

Just let the alpha sac himself, making 2 normal zombos. Then let the village hunt them down. Drop the supa-angel, the medium and lets just run it out like a normal WW.

2 wolves have done it against incredible odds before. And it's not like the 2 days already past will help us find them.

I'm fine with this, hate to waste the time spent already, but if it's a restart that fine too.

Valiant effort at mixing it up Trip but this one got too complicated

[bode]

lets just start over with classic recruiting alpha rules. good try trip.

[BooG690]

There's no tweaking that can be done to this game? Either way is fine with me.

Trips = epic attempt at an epic WW.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUEw5WY-Two

[StillDeadMoney]

If the Alpha were to asplode himself and recruit a handful of regular zombies, the odds would still greatly favor the village because of the angel of death and so forth. At this point you may as well restart.

I think as long as the Alpha role does not transfer, the game is winnable by the villagers.

Nevertheless, this is a very fun and interesting game, lolzzz.

[JKDS]

even alpha games are winnable.

+1 epic attempt at epic ww, plz try more different ones

+1 for now just restarting a classic alpha one.

[flomo]

can we cap the # of recruitments?

or just make me "the all powerful angel-triple seer-quad vig bad ass"

so i'd be the next best thing after this

[Stacks]

another +1 for the effort. Actively trying to make the games more interesting is better than not. This just got a bit too complicated, and unbalanced.

I'm fine with a restart, as classic WW, classic alpha WW, or even another breed of WW. Probably best to talk through all of the rules first to make sure it's balanced.

I do have some qualms about me killing myself off and then the game turning in a reg WW game though. I mean, the game would be different had the rules been different from the start, so being in this situation probably wouldn't have happened. And I've spent quite a bit of time working out different strats to bend to the new rules. Strat for before we knew about he medium, amending that strat for when we did know about the medium, strat for when we didn't know the alpha transferred down, strat for when we did, etc. I know I'm dead meat anyways, but kinda gay for all of this devising to be totally pointless because the rules are only now being determined as unfair. Especially when I noticed how one sided the medium, seer/vig being intertwined, angel of death, etc thing was from the start.

[StillDeadMoney]

... looks like both lynch candidates were zombies after all lol

[Penneywize]

Hey, just thought I'd throw in my $0.02

Lolzzz - taking away the perpetual alpha zombie mechanic, which I think most of us didn't know about at all till today, this format was fine. There really was nothing wrong with it -

The medium acts as a nearly perfect counterbalance to a recruiting alpha wolf. The time gained from successful blocks allows the village a chance to pick out the alpha, and once it does, the game essentially returns to classic WW, albeit with a different village dynamic.

You just got horrendously unlucky with the village being so accurate on days 1 and 2 - SDM blocking a recruit, the village hanging a wolf and the vig shooting the alpha. That's pretty much GG, as it should be. We should really just call this one a village win.

What sucks though is that we likely wont try a similar format for some time, if ever, even though there really wasn't anything terribly wrong about it aside from a few tweaks.

anyhow - my opinion on this is to call it a village win and start a new WW immediately

[Penneywize]

This just got a bit too complicated, and unbalanced.
(...)
Especially when I noticed how one sided the medium, seer/vig being intertwined, angel of death, etc thing was from the start.

No. The game wasn't really unbalanced, you just got mad unlucky. The village played perfectly aside for it's day 1 lynch which turned out to be a blessing in disguise.

The medium was a natural counterbalance to the generally overpowered alpha wolf (we've been over this), the seer/vig being intertwined helps the village how(?), and we never got to experience the angel of death.

All I'm really trying to say is don't blame yourself, and certainly don't blame the rules.. as said by nearly everyone in this thread - the village pitched a perfect game.

[givememyleg]

negro please

[Stacks]

If the game is over, then I have a rather large post typed up. If it isn't, then I guess I'll leave it at bay until the game is over.

Imo, I would prefer a new game be started. Not just because of my impending death, but because it's better than totally revamping the entire dynamic of a WW game mid game.

[Keith]

I think on balance restarting with classic alpha rules is the best way out. I think the lesson to be learned from this WW is that rules need to be laid out at the start so that any problems with the rules can be ironed out before we get into gameplay, rather than trying to introduce new rules during the play.
I have to take some responsibility for pointing out how the village could manipulate the rules to its advantage,but in essence the seer and Vig being dispensible totally altered normal strategies., not necessarily a bad thing , just exploitable by the village.
Having said that , spenda not taking part (see rilla and CBC last day on last WW) and then coming up with a feeble excuse combined with a successful seer lookup are the main reason this has got to this stage.

[Pelion]

Hey, just thought I'd throw in my $0.02

Lolzzz - taking away the perpetual alpha zombie mechanic, which I think most of us didn't know about at all till today, this format was fine. There really was nothing wrong with it -

The medium acts as a nearly perfect counterbalance to a recruiting alpha wolf. The time gained from successful blocks allows the village a chance to pick out the alpha, and once it does, the game essentially returns to classic WW, albeit with a different village dynamic.

You just got horrendously unlucky with the village being so accurate on days 1 and 2 - SDM blocking a recruit, the village hanging a wolf and the vig shooting the alpha. That's pretty much GG, as it should be. We should really just call this one a village win.

What sucks though is that we likely wont try a similar format for some time, if ever, even though there really wasn't anything terribly wrong about it aside from a few tweaks.

anyhow - my opinion on this is to call it a village win and start a new WW immediately

I agree with this. The village got crazy lucky in this one. Id be up for trying a similar format again at some point, but with alpha not passing down. Once the village knows who all the wolves are it should be really really hard to lose. Perpetual alpha + recruit before shoot makes it really easy to lose even when you know all the wolves.

For now Im fine with stacks nuking himself and making more classic wolves, but I think it would be better to just call it a village win and start a new game with the same people and with more classic rules.

[GatorJH]

I think we could toss all the names back in the hat and start fresh

I vote for this

[StillDeadMoney]

I copy/pasted the rules for WW recruiting Alpha classic: (from the WW March Madness thread)

The game will be played with the mostly classic rules. There are a few changes though:

The game begins with one ALPHA WOLF who decides whether to recruit OR kill a villager. He may recruit OR kill each night, if he decides to recruit then the groups discuss amongst themselves whether to recruit OR kill. If the ALPHA WOLF dies the wolves lose the ability to recruit.

There is no seer (#1 seed won, who needs one?), or angel. There is a vigilante who receives a bullet every other night starting night 2. HE/COURTIEBEE MAY SHOOT AS MANY BULLETS AS HE HAS ANY GIVEN NIGHT. If the ALPHA WOLF tries to recruit the vigilante, both will die. If the wolves decided to kill the vigilante a random wolf who is not the ALPHA WOLF will die.

Also, you guys may talk on night 1, and there is no time limit on voting.

This game ended in a flawless victory for the wolves.

I want to reiterate my opposition to any kind of unlimited-recruiting game. As I have stated in the signup thread, there are two very likely outcomes for alpha recruiting games. They are:

a) The village gets lucky and wins the game almost immediately
b) The village fails to stop the wolves within the first few days, and the wolves win

In either case, it's kind of anti-climactic. The game we just played was a case of (a) because the village played perfectly (except for the fact a villager was hung on the first day).

The biggest leak in the recruiting alpha game is vote swing that takes place every night when a wolf is recruited. When a wolf is recruited, the village loses a vote and the wolves gain a vote. When the wolves eat instead, the village loses a vote and the wolves do not gain a vote.

[bode]

SDM, the difference there is that once the alpha dies, there is no more recruiting.

[Stacks]

Well.. Here's how I see things here.. Yeah, we got a bit unlucky. Whether JKDS just randomly chose to look me up and got his man, or if I made some novice wolf mistake that tipped his veteran radar off, I don't know. I'm thinking the latter, and wouldn't doubt it, as I'm not that prolific of a player that he would randomly chose to seek me, as I'm not going to influence the game dynamic that much. So this can't really be attributed to bad luck.

But not knowing all of the rules was a huge hinderance for me. Much more so than the village not knowing exactly what the medium was going to do. Basically, I had to change my plan of attack 3 or 4 different times, and still never got to implement either one of them. This is all due to finding out the rules at different intervals.

At first, I had no idea that a medium would be able to protect 1/3 (quite alot) of the village any given night. Because of this, a strat was formulated to recruit solid players because even if it was the obvious choice and the solid players would in return be lynched by the village, hell, that's one less solid player putting the pieces together in the end. Not to mention I would get their help while they were alive, and this is needed as I'm still pretty inexperienced with WW. However, the medium was introduced and this was changed.

The spenda BW got going, and then it derailed for me after JKDS called me out stating he was the seer. This threw a huge wrench into things. Spenda was willing to lay down on the sword and get lynched, just so I could make it through the night and hopefully recruit again. We had no idea about the continuing alpha wolf, or else we would have just let me take a lynch, since Spenda was, as JKDS would say, a "confirmed villager". This would have worked out great.

A Keith_MM bandwagon gets going based off of JKDS's incorrect count (easy mistake, but still hurt us). It was pretty obvious at the end that the Spenda/Stax lynch BW had been derailed, and we were going to get a chance to lynch a villager, keep spenda under raps, and allow me to recruit what we thought to be the vig to pull in the seer, thus keeping me from getting shot.

However, this was extremely flawed by the seer/vig being intertwined. As if I would have recruited either one, they would have both been converted. Yet the village would instantly be notified not only by the update post stating that TWO villagers had been converted to zombies, but also by the Angel of Death stating he had all the power now, and thus protecting himself indefinitely leading to a inevitable Village win. So, getting Spenda lynched so there was no medium, and then going after JKDS/vig would have been somewhat useless because the Village still gets to retain the seer/vig powers through the Angel of Death, while also knowing the identity of JKDS. And when they lynch JKDS, they also kill the vig. So that's how that works against us.

Not to mention, the seer/vig knew each other identities. In a regular WW game, had JKDS said he was the seer, and then claimed that Spenda was practically a confirmed villager, I would have had a pretty reasonable argument against him. Given he actively tried to derail a Spenda lynch, stating he was a villager, then he turns out to be a zombie. Seems pretty suspicious. So I could have stepped up, calling him a liar, and maybe even claiming seer myself. However, with this seer/vig dynamic that is impossible. Because the one person that could single-handedly spoil this strat (the vig) already knew if JKDS was telling the truth or not, and thus if I was a zombie or not.

I agree that the medium wasn't a huge problem, and can probably be worked into the game successfully. It does counteract the ability for the alpha zombie to keep on recruiting without deterrence. But the Angel of Death is just too over the top. It sounds fucking badass, but allowing 1 individual to have that much power seems pretty flawed. The beauty of the seer/vig/angel dynamic is the leveling that can take place since the identities aren't known. Taking away that ability and allowing one person to be on the same page with all of the power, just misses that dynamic greatly.

I'm not blaming the outcome on the rules, but to say the rules were balanced, or even only a moderate hindrance for the zombies is somewhat ignorant. There were a million things going against us from the start. It just so happens that the introduction of a re-occuring Alpha makes things a little bit more even. But it was never even implemented.

This can hardly be considered a confirmed Village win, when while play was happening all of the rules were in your favor, and only when things started turning to the side of the zombies, did the game get stopped.

[Penneywize]

Dude... Calm down, lol.

Fine, Seer/Vig knowing each other is bad for you.

The angel of death thing might have been over the top. We don't really know except in theory.

But the rules weren't the reason you lost. If you fretted from the very start and had to change your strat, that's your problem man. Adapt.

You lost because:

1: you were outleveled by SDM (like he'd be fucking stupid enough to post who he's protecting?!?)

2: you acted like enough of a wolf to get JKDS to look you up

3: Spenda wasn't playing and got himself hanged

'nuff said. Stop acting like the whole world was against you on this one man. I bet you anything that the next time we try a similar format, the wolf side lasts much longer than 2 days. Sorry to be harsh dude, I have nothing against you really, but don't whine so much or blame everyone but yourself when you lose a game this bad.


PS: FUCK classic alpha game, but hey, if y'all have a hard-on for it or something, I'll play - maybe I'll get to be the alpha and lay down the pwn?

[lolzzz_321]

Ya. I'll trash it and do a classic alpha werewolf one. I will try something like this again though. I read all your posts and will take them into consideration for future games.

I'll take a quick look at stax's though.

Spenda is whiny and sad his dont say anything strat got him killed. Ya I didn't make it clear or even known the alpha would perpetual. Sorry you had to adjust your strategy? You guys just got unlucky.

Angel of death is sweet because he has to shoot someone every night, and possibly saves a wolf!

I'll work on balancing things for WW holiday/xmas/hanukkah/kwanzaa

Alright new game...

[Penneywize]

Sweet

but Lolz - please at least put in Angel / Vig / Seer if we're doing classic alpha?

plox?

[BooG690]

SDM...why did you choose to protect me? I thought you hated me.

[bigspenda73]

Lol @ spenda complaining

why, your rules clearly sucked and it's pretty obvious you were just doing things on the fly, and hadn't thought anything out.

[bigspenda73]

Spenda is whiny and sad his dont say anything strat got him killed. Ya I didn't make it clear or even known the alpha would perpetual. Sorry you had to adjust your strategy? You guys just got unlucky.

when did I ever complain about dying? I told stacks when he picked me I wasn't into the game, we came up w/ what we thought was a really good strategy, and then your ridiculous rules absolutely butt-fucked us. Had I known we'd be screwed from the start, I would have been more active.

Finally, the fact that you took so long to count the votes allowed the village to continue to talk, and it came out that stacks was the alpha. Thanks moderatoratoratorator.