these are your villains

[LawDude]

Remember to bet for value:

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A, K
3 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls

Flop: (11 SB) 7, K, 6 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, SB calls, 2 folds

Turn: (7 BB) 4 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP3 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, MP3 calls

River: (13 BB) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls

Total pot: $7.50 (15 BB) | Rake: $0.35

Results:
Hero had A, K (two pair, Kings and fours).
MP3 mucked 6, A (two pair, sixes and fours).
Outcome: Hero won $7.15

[Chopper]

nh. i likely just call the turn raise and b/c the river, feeling like i counterfeited his stupid two pair he hit on the turn.

gotta admit, most turn raises on non-flushy boards have TPTK beat down here. doesnt mean we fold, but it does mean we take heed, imo.

[LawDude]

This guy was FOS a lot, so I decided to try to punish him.

But more generally, as you said, this is often 2 pair, and we have outs if it is. And the turn raise is FOS or a semi-bluff a lot more often than I realized. (Last night playing 8/16 live, interestingly, someone donked the turn as a semi-bluff after flopping a flush draw and check-calling. He actually won the hand when he hit his flush on the river, but it was a very interesting line.)

So I am toying with mixing in some more aggressive lines against loose turn raisers, figuring I'll draw out sometimes and that more attentive players may pay off my monsters a little better.

[Chopper]

i think donking the turn is as uninteresting as it gets. wtf is he trying to do? get a fold? yeah, right. if he wanted to semi-bluff the turn and get a possible fold, he should c/r. but, anyone would say that move would rarely fold a 2nd barrel. i say, exactly, which is why we dont bluff there often.

so, its a fishy as hell line to me.

as for your HH, if the guy is FOS a lot, then great. i dont recall that "read" being posted in your original message, though. and, it certainly would have kept me from making the comment because i 3bet maniacs with TPTK on rainbow boards quite a bit, too.

[LawDude]

He wasn't so much a maniac as a big-time semi-bluffer. But the reason I didn't include the read is because I wanted to make a more general comment about value betting TPTK. People 2-barrel enough with hands they raised pre-flop that there are plenty of villains out there who love to bluff or semi-bluff the turn. As a result, there's more value than you might think in being willing to 3-bet turns with TPTK or overpairs, especially if you think that someone might take a note and pay off a monster a little better in the future. (It could also create some more fold equity in the future for your c-bets on flops that you miss.)

It's an especially good play because it's in the nature of a semi-bluff-- even if you are behind, you can draw out on some of the hands that beat you.

I don't recommend this as a continuing strategy-- just something to add to the toolkit on occasion (and even without the read).

[Chopper]

are you saying this about yourself, or him?

It's an especially good play because it's in the nature of a semi-bluff-- even if you are behind, you can draw out on some of the hands that beat you.

because if YOU are saying this about YOUR moves, i am shocked. lol.

[LawDude]

are you saying this about yourself, or him?

It's an especially good play because it's in the nature of a semi-bluff-- even if you are behind, you can draw out on some of the hands that beat you.

because if YOU are saying this about YOUR moves, i am shocked. lol.

Semi-bluffs are in the toolkit, Chopper.

[Chopper]

i know. i am just giving you crap.