Playing Strong but not top hands vs. light 3betting

[mixchange]

This happens to me a lot, and I'm not really sure how to handle these spots. The below is kind of a ramble, but that's because I don't know the best answer.



Scenario:

You raise from button or CO
sb/bb 3bet
(6%+ 3better positionally)


What do we do with 88-JJ?


Calling seems good because we get a cbet from his air, and possibly a turn bet, and 4betting seems tough with 88/99 and possible maybe with 1010/JJ

But then the flop/turn are difficult to play, even with position. We have to call the flop and check the turn (if we can, and calling doubles can be tough) on a lot of boards...


What about with A9s-AJs?

since we miss so much with those, 4bet bluff seems good, or call and bluffraise low/mid boards or 3bet/get in any flushdraw

[zook]

I call a lot ip with JJ-88 and A9s+ vs. frequent 3bettors. Not sure it's optimal though which is one of the reasons I'm bumping this.

[minSim]

6% 3bettor isn't that high is it? If it's getting like 8% I'm 4betting TT/JJ.

I just wanted to add that, for the rest I am pretty bad at 3bet pots I called pre, so I mostly avoid it by folding a lot.

Besides A9s+ being decent bluff raise hands, is it important it strengthens our range on A high flops?

[Marshall28]

I think it's okay to call if you call somewhat frequently and you do it with both speculative and strong hands. I think it's a little better to 4bet more often and do it with a somewhat wide but polarized range, weighted with mostly bluffing hands.

I don't think it's okay to do a mix of both calling and 4betting subsequently. It is too difficult to balance both ranges and understand how your opponent is perceiving them.

All that being said, if I perceive this guy has been getting out of line 3betting me a bit too much and I have 88, I'll just 4bet and call if he shoves (expecting him to shove light since I've probably been 4betting more than my fair share). If I've been calling a bit, I'd prefer to just continue calling w/ all thsoe hands except maybe JJ. I think JJ/QQ are more necessary to get in before the flop since they are hurt the most by overcards, and with 88-TT it's not a big deal if an overcard flops since there are lots of overcards to those hands as it is.

I think just saying "oh if he 3bets 8% I widen my range to JJ/TT" is like okay, and not going to be a mistake, but I don't think it's always the best play to just default to something like that.

[minSim]

I think just saying "oh if he 3bets 8% I widen my range to JJ/TT" is like okay, and not going to be a mistake, but I don't think it's always the best play to just default to something like that.

True ofcourse.
I just meant that even against the tightest shoving ranges we're +EV with 4bet/calling JJ/TT against a 3bet range like that. And combining that with some 4bet bluffing we have a pretty easy and profitable strategie against light 3betters without the risk of making big mistakes by calling too much if you're not good enough postflop.

That's all though. I'm not as good as you guys and my opponents aren't as good as yours, so there's probably a lot more to say.

[mixchange]

I think it's okay to call if you call somewhat frequently and you do it with both speculative and strong hands. I think it's a little better to 4bet more often and do it with a somewhat wide but polarized range, weighted with mostly bluffing hands.

Vague, but I generally agree.

I don't think it's okay to do a mix of both calling and 4betting subsequently. It is too difficult to balance both ranges and understand how your opponent is perceiving them.

Hmm. I feel like most opponents at this stake with high 3bet %s actually don't really know what they are doing and thus I expect them to make a lot of mistakes. I am not sure what you mean here.

All that being said, if I perceive this guy has been getting out of line 3betting me a bit too much and I have 88, I'll just 4bet and call if he shoves (expecting him to shove light since I've probably been 4betting more than my fair share).

I end up doing the same thing a lot, but by that point most villains feel if I'd folded to 2+ 3bets by him that if they are 5bet shoving it will be with the top of their range and I just get fucked seeing QQ+ and at best AK. I'd rather just 4bet/fold with like Ax when its gotten to 2+ folds vs. his 3bet then to 4bet call 88.

If I've been calling a bit, I'd prefer to just continue calling w/ all thsoe hands except maybe JJ. I think JJ/QQ are more necessary to get in before the flop since they are hurt the most by overcards, and with 88-TT it's not a big deal if an overcard flops since there are lots of overcards to those hands as it is.

Hmm. I don't feel like 99/1010 is much better when you actually see the flop and have to play it. I bet you'd hardly ever get to showdown vs. a flatted jj/qq, and if you are already double barelling its hard for him to call a turn in a 3bet pot with just a J (if he called light with a KJ/QJ hand) and if he's hit a K on the flop we're probably able to pot control

I think just saying "oh if he 3bets 8% I widen my range to JJ/TT" is like okay, and not going to be a mistake, but I don't think it's always the best play to just default to something like that.

Well, that was not what I was proposing. Basically I am confused to what is the optimal play, it seems like a huge grey area with hands that are tough to play on the flop. With the mid pairs villain has so many unpaired cards that we like to leave them initiative on the flop so we get their cbet, but if they are a double-barelling villain in a 3bet pot it gets insanely hard.... or you just have to take a stand

[Marshall28]

I'm not going to get into the game of breaking down every line and re-stating stuff I already said... I'll just look at this one cuz it seems to be the most fundamental part of it...

All that being said, if I perceive this guy has been getting out of line 3betting me a bit too much and I have 88, I'll just 4bet and call if he shoves (expecting him to shove light since I've probably been 4betting more than my fair share).

I end up doing the same thing a lot, but by that point most villains feel if I'd folded to 2+ 3bets by him that if they are 5bet shoving it will be with the top of their range and I just get fucked seeing QQ+ and at best AK. I'd rather just 4bet/fold with like Ax when its gotten to 2+ folds vs. his 3bet then to 4bet call 88.

Think about it like this.... Let's say you've 3bet some guy 10 times in a row and he has folded every time. Do you think the next time you 3bet you should have AA or 39o? 39o obviously is the right answer since you can't expect to win any more money from him if you 3bet AA since you think he's going to fold.

So now shrink it to the first two times, if you folded to the last two, his range should be slowly opening up as bluffs since your mistake is folding too much, and he should continue opening it up until you do decide to play back. So if you pick up 88 or 99 the 3rd time and now you 4bet, if he shoves, it just means that he's had it every time and you've been running bad. It doesn't mean that they've made some completely RANDOM adjustment the 3rd time since for some reason he expects you to play back at this one specifically.... he just got lucky is all.

Try to apply that concept to this situation as a whole and you'll do a lot better in it imo.

Marshall, I like timing tells here
if the guy hits time and folds after the first three times you 3b him, expect him to play back in the near future

[Marshall28]

I agree, I usually will let time run down the 2nd time some guy does it though just to let him know I'm aware of what's going on. So it could really mean anything if your opponent is cognizant. I find most people don't like to 3bet me too often anyways though cuz I 4bet a lot. (Unless they plan on shoving which they seem to do every time lately.)