2 Hand Histories, 2 Buy-Ins

[loonychune]

I think both of these felt like coolers at the time. But I now think I can probably get away from both.

Same villain in both, he runs 5/0 over 20 in the first and about 8/0 over 40 in the second.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($11.65)
Hero (SB) ($26.30)
BB ($25.35)
UTG ($20)
UTG+1 ($7.20)
MP1 ($4.95)
MP2 ($13.95)
CO ($25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, 6
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.15, BB checks

Flop: ($1) A, 6, 6 (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks

Turn: ($1) J (4 players)
Hero bets $0.75, 2 folds, CO raises to $2, Hero calls $1.25

River: ($5) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $3, CO raises to $22.75 (All-In), Hero calls $19.75

Total pot: $50.50 | Rake: $2.50

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By this hand I know he's not stacking off too lightly.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($15.80)
Hero (Button) ($25)
SB ($14.25)
BB ($19.65)
UTG ($4.65)
UTG+1 ($8)
MP1 ($5.40)
MP2 ($13.45)
MP3 ($48.95)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10, A
4 folds, MP3 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero bets $1.25, 2 folds, MP3 calls $1

Flop: ($2.85) J, A, 2 (2 players)
MP3 bets $2, Hero raises to $7, MP3 raises to $47.70 (All-In), Hero calls $16.75 (All-In)

Turn: ($50.35) 7 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($50.35) 10 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $50.35 | Rake: $2.50

[loonychune]

My own thoughts:-

Hand 1:

• If I lead the flop i'm probably screaming 6x. My hand is good enough to give free cards, plus I have the option of check/raising with so many in the pot.
  
  When he overbet shoves, can I really put him on a weak 6x still?

Hand 2:

• Now I know he's not stacking off too lightly, so when he bet/3bets his range is probably AJ+,22,JJ,AA, against which i'm a 60:40 dog. Calling 1 or 2 streets in position is probably the best play here.

[xpaand]

I don't have enough knowledge to comment on hand #2, but in hand #1, the only way he could beat you is if he had AA, which he definitely would have played differently. Am I wrong?

That's pretty close to how I would've played those hands. Except I'd probably have bet a minor amount in the first hand on the flop. Is that a bad idea? Or would a check be better due to the strength of my hand, allowing people to possibly hit something not as strong.

[loonychune]

In the first hand he also beats me with JJ. I probably can't include Ax in his range since i'd expect him to bet the flop. So it's 6x, JJ, AA. Against an unknown I think there's probably enough 6x in his range to make this call. But, the overbet shove is what i'm concerned about here.

[xpaand]

LOL wow I didn't see that. I would've still played it like you did, because I just can't see someone slowplaying AA or even JJ to that degree. How was he playing before?

[bigspenda73]

ru serious about 1

[loonychune]

ru serious about 1

I post for a joke. It's just because I lost the hand!

It probably still needed posting beause, along with villain's stats, I had enough information to play 2 differently.

[Micro2Macro]

haha I think 1 might actually be a fold. like seriously, what is his shoving range...he's not bluffing, and he's not limping anything with a 6 here, and 44 is out because he wouldn't raise it on the turn.
If anytime is a good time to fold a boat it's now. (he had JJ correct?)

Second hand: Against this range...

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

20,790 games 0.032 secs 649,687 games/sec

Board: Js Ad 2s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.186% 36.80% 00.39% 7650 81.00 { AsTs }
Hand 1: 62.814% 62.42% 00.39% 12978 81.00 { AA, JJ, 22, AKs, AJs, AKo, AJo }


I've got a meeting in about 10 minutes so I need to get on the subway. You can run the pot odds, or adjust the range as necessary and figure out if it's a call.

[okiman]

I'd play hand 1 faster. You'll get action from most Ax hands, all 6x hands, maybe even flush draws. You can't be serious about getting away from the hand. Sure you ran into JJ here, but come on. It's a cooler. This is exactly the sort of hand you want to stack off with. As played, you might be getting action from AK, AQ, AJ, 6x. Even this opponent might play AJ, 6x this way. Ironically, playing to get your stack in by leading the flop likely would have pushed off this particular opponent from his JJ.

Hand 2: Why are you playing so fast here? Here you have a decent made hand, but a huge draw too. What might your opponent have? A weak ace? A small flush draw? AQ? AJ? 22? Maybe KJ? Your flop raise is scaring off the hands you are beating and keeping around the hands that beat you. Plus, you want flush draws to draw with you and donate chips to you along the way. You can even price these hands in along the way with a small bet if they check to you on the turn.

[Carroters]

I don't like your turn play one hand 1. Seems you're just passing up value by flatting his turn raise. You're hand is huge, this is a total cooler, but 3 bet the turn and either get it in, or set up a bigger river bet. You're just slow playing aimlessly and losing value by flatting his raise.

You're oop - take your chance to escalate this pot while you have it imo.

[oskar]

Preflop is fine in both hands, but please bet.... please!

You'll get called by all flushdraws, most Aces all 6x's and very likely even 77+ for at least one street - pretty much everything that will call the turn also. What do you want them to catch? A middle pair?

Hand 2 I don't like the raise because you're not folding out anything you beat, you're just hoping to get a lower flushdraw to commit more chips. Pair + FD is almost always a raise, but in this case I don't see the point.

[ArcadianRock]

It sucks to lose hands like that but honestly if you have a boat using both hole cards, you just have to assume you're going to felt it. You're probably good 90% of the time or more but if this guy is shoving with AJ how can you turn that down if he puts you on two pair yourself.

2nd hand seems fine to me, you tried your semi-bluff, didn't work but you still got a good chance to the nuts or some other outs to help out. If you lost to a set on that one it's tough too but hey, long term game. If those two situations came up all the time you would be a rich man.

[Micro2Macro]

Oh I forgot to mention I lead here in hand 1. You'll get action more than you think.

[texa8]

there is no way you can say you could get away from hand 1. You're looking to get all your chips in the table with the a hand and the turn seems like the perfect spot to do with when he re-raises.. i raise 6 with the hope of getting it all in...

hand 2 i probably just call the flop in position. especially as you know urself that hes not stacking off light, you know your behind. i just call the flop and see what the turn brings, and reevaluate you're odds.

[Micro2Macro]

What does everything think the 5/0 scared money villains' shoving range is in hand 1 on that river?

Let's just assume we have enough hands on him to make his 5/0 preflop stats a marginally decent reflection on the type of player he is.

I still probably call just because it's so gross and I'd pray he has AJ, but honestly what is his range here.

[oskar]

What does everything think the 5/0 scared money villains' shoving range is in hand 1 on that river?

Let's just assume we have enough hands on him to make his 5/0 preflop stats a marginally decent reflection on the type of player he is.

I still probably call just because it's so gross and I'd pray he has AJ, but honestly what is his range here.

I wouldn't be too surprised with the 5/0. Over 20 hands you only get a very rough stats. He's probably not a maniac, but you have no idea how he plays post flop.
He could be trapping with any 6 imo, and that alone makes this an easy call. CO posted - he might just as well have J6, 46, 44. I would discard JJ, AA if I didn't know that OP lost.

I feel stupid even writing this. There is no way in hell this is ever a fold. Maybe 500bb deep with a read or something, but never here.

It's this kind of scared thinking that is killing your profits. OP should have most if not all of his stack in the middle by the river by his own initiative in hand 1.
Stop checking the flop with monsters... seriously. If you keep playing it the way you did, you might not be loosing money, but you could make a lot more in that hand if you bet it like a man.
Isn't the problem obvious... If you only get one call, the pot is 3 times as big on the turn! Which means you can get away with a 3 times bigger bet on the turn. This is why trapping is so terrible, especially at the micros where people stack off with 2nd pair.

[CBAT]

I'm in on #1 no matter who he is.

[Micro2Macro]

If we have like 500 hands or so on him, and some idea of what he's doing postflop its a fold though. With this sample I suppose a crying call is standard.

What is his range on the river shove..not just 'what hands could he have here'

44 is definately not in his range, and J6 or 46 doesnt make sense, so you're just listing hands that beat us, not which hands are likely to take the entire line starting preflop and going to the river.

If he's 5/0, even if its for 20 hands, hes not limp calling J6 period.

I'm not saying this is a for sure fold, mostly because AJ looks like its showing up here alot and your right we dont have enough info on him to give him a precise range.

I never have to make the choice in hand 1 because I'd bet the flop, bet the turn and stack off on the turn with normal size bets

[oskar]

I never have to make the choice in hand 1 because I'd bet the flop, bet the turn and stack off on the turn with normal size bets

that

Micro, if you make one more post about why you think this is a fold, I'm loosing it. OP way underrepped his hand, and over 20 hands I would just assume a generic opponent who just didn't catch much the first two orbits. I run between 0/0 and 60/60 over the first 20 hands at a new table fwiw.
Not betting this hand is terrible. Folding the river is just stupid.

[dev]

Yeah, 1 is unfoldable. It's so unfoldable that I really think you can slow play it, and I go thousands of hands between times when I even think of slowplaying. So despite the replies about betting it earlier, you got the money in, so GJ.

2 is very, very foldable.

[oskar]

2 is very, very foldable.

Getting 1.8:1 with 12 outs - at least 9 drawing live is very foldable?
I don't like the raise on the flop one bit, but after that I think he needs to call.

[dev]

2 is very, very foldable.

Getting 1.8:1 with 12 outs - at least 9 drawing live is very foldable?
I don't like the raise on the flop one bit, but after that I think he needs to call.

Sorry, I'm kinda drunk.
Ok I'm really drunk. I didn't see the flush draw.

Why is this a thread? How can we justify laying down either of these hands? All we can talk about is bet size and lines for later in the hands.

[loonychune]

Why is this a thread? How can we justify laying down either of these hands? All we can talk about is bet size and lines for later in the hands.

I was rash in posting these hands. Course I can't get away from hand 1. I think I do have the option of getting away from hand 2 on later streets vs this opponent and given his NIT history but either way the raise is poor since his i'm never that good vs his 3bet/stack off range in this spot.

Another thing that's come up... im not building the pot early enough in 1. I feel like the better play would be to bet/call the flop as opposed to bet/3bet. Thoughts on that line?

[sil693]

Let's just assume we have enough hands on him to make his 5/0 preflop stats a marginally decent reflection on the type of player he is.

why would we want to assume this?

[bigspenda73]

Well I think you should include hand 1 with results in a question about how to play hand 2. Or you could just say this guy isn't stacking off light at all and tends to play really good hands passively PF.

[loonychune]

Yeah shouldn't have got too caught up on hand 1 in itself.

What do you think to leading that flop though?

[Micro2Macro]

Im not saying fold hand 1 because honestly, I dont think anyone folds it - myself included.

Oskar: When putting someone on a range of hands you dont just list of every possible hand that makes something on the board and then leave it at that. You have to eliminate hands that wouldn't show up based on the action. For example, you can't include J6 in his range here due to preflop action, and 44 doesn't make sense because of the turn min raise.

Sil: I said the 'lets just assume hes 5/0 over 500 hands thing' to illustrate a point that we can't necessarily auto-call everytime someone shoves into us and we have a boat. There are going to be times where we have some history on a guy to know we are beat in this situation. I know we don't know enough here, but I'm saying sometimes we'll play against people who only overshove monster hands postflop. Like when somone says 'I call no matter who it is', clearly they need to take into account the scenerio when we have alot of history - enough to pretty much put him on an exact hand. Obviously we call no matter who it is here if we don't know exactly how they play postflop.

Looneychune: I like leading the flop because I lead these type of flops when I have nothing often, so I don't like checking all of a sudden when I hit. There's a flush draw and an ace on board, and no matter what the turn card the ace and the flush draw are pretty much the only hands you'll get action from since if someone turns a lower pair they will want to keep the pot small because of the ace on the flop. Might as well bet now and if someone has the draw or the ace you'll get action, if not, you probably wouldn't get much action by slowplaying unless someone turns a bigger boat.