~ Tricky situation

[ejaredx]

Playing micro-limits; 25c/50c.
Everyone's stack including mine, relatively the same, around $50 (avg)

I'm first to the pot, in MP w/AA, KK, or AK (doesn't matter), and I raise plfop 3.5xBB

I get one caller in EP, and one in LP.

Board 6H 7S 2H

Person in EP BETS into me what does this mean? Usually I assume
he has a STRONG flush or straight draw, or maybe even both?

Do you: Call him? Raise since you have overpair? Fold because you think he has a very strong draw?

[ejaredx]

OH by the way this is a NO LIMIT CASH GAME

lol

[Biglines]

Playing micro-limits; 25c/50c.


I'm first to the pot, in MP w/AA, KK, or AK (doesn't matter), and I raise plfop 3.5xBB

It probably does matter as AK is not a made hand.

[LawDude]

You need reads. I am a live player, not a HUD-meister, so I will put it in non-statistical terms. If you have seen EP betting a good percentage of the flops he sees (or at least when he has called a pre-flop raise), and especially if you have seen EP bet flops, show down his hand, and reveal that as of the flop he only had a draw, overcards, or nothing, you might conclude that EP's bet is a continuation bet, and call or raise it on the theory that your AK actually beats a fair part of his range. You also need to consider whether LP is the type of player to fold to your aggression, call, or re-raise and what his likely calling range was pre-flop, as well as what both players are likely to do on the turn if you stay in the hand.

On the other hand, if EP has only bet strong hands on the flop, especially in early position, you may conclude that he's ahead of you and that a fold is in order unless you think that you can force him and LP to fold their hands through sheer aggression, which is also a function of your reads and what they did on prior hands.

(If you have KK or AA, it is somewhat easier, as you will beat a much greater range of hands, but you still want to rely on your reads, i.e., if EP only bets a flop in early position with 2 pair or better, that would be a piece of information you would want to know before jumping in with your overpair!)

I am sure other posters will tell you to get a heads up display and can tell you what statistics to look at to make this determination, and I would endorse that recommendation. But you can also do your reads yourself (as I do). The key is that you process the information from previous hands that you have observed (whether through HUD or your own observation) to determine what that EP flop bet tells you about EP's range.

[ChrisBCritter]

Ok now, we are going to need a lot more info here. And the situation is different between KK+ and AK hands, so you can't lump them together and expect the same response.

You're first into the pot in MP, yet you get an EP caller? Do you mean someone called out of the blinds?

You raise 3.5BB to ~$2.25 PF so on the flop the pot is ~$8. How much does your EP donk into you? $0.50? $3? $8?

Do you have ANY read on this person? How long have you been at the table? What about your LP caller? What do you think He's going to do depending on your action?

Fold because you think he has a very strong draw?

LOL. Straight flush draw vs. overpair on flop is 50/50 (small edge to draw) but that would imply that you have a VERY solid read on your opponenet. Do you?

[ejaredx]

MORE INFO : : : (Sorry guys I didn't specify early, my apologies!)

1. Online game
2. The guy betting into me bet 75% of pot (sometimes its 85%)
3. THE EP player was once BB, once it happened another time it was also under the gun
4. 9/10 person full game
5. Average stacks, $50 (around there, each)
6. KK is my hand, but this has happened with AK too, and AA once also.
7. None of my cards are hearts (no backdoor flush draw), even when I had AK
7. Any reads on opponents? Not really, I'm playing 5 tables at once, I'm too much of a novice to be good at reading. SOME things are obvious like if they bet 1/2 pot they want you to call, especially on river, but other than that no.
^-- This is not just one person who did this tho, I've encountered more than a few people doing this in the past, whether they were donks or not I do not know 100%. BUT remember in microlimits, donks are much more plentiful, I'd say in a game of 10 ppl of 25c/50c, usually there are 6 good players (including me), and 4 donks. Sometimes even the ratio is 5:5

7.I've been in the game for 30 mins

8. Not only could he have a str8/flush draw, he could've hit trips as well, or two pair

[oskar]

Welcome to the forum.
What site do you play?
Use the hand converter please (link to the left).
If you haven't got it, get Holdem Manager to review your sessions.

A small donk bet (betting into the initial raiser) can either mean a medium strengh hand or draw block betting. It is rarely a strong made hand. Reads on opponent would be nice. If you are too occupied to get reads playing 5 tables - play less.

AA or KK I would raise to about pot and call or fold to a shove depening on villains open-limping range. (Is he open limping sc's from EP?l)
AK you could fold call or raise depending on bet size and opponent. It would be nice to have the actual history with flop texture and villains stats.


Since you're new here, please read the Bankroll Management section. I have a suspicion you should be playing lower than you are right now.

[LawDude]

7. Any reads on opponents? Not really, I'm playing 5 tables at once, I'm too much of a novice to be good at reading. SOME things are obvious like if they bet 1/2 pot they want you to call, especially on river, but other than that no.

I am not going to tell you there is one way to play poker. It is entirely possible that the players at certain levels of poker are so homogenous that you can beat them without doing any or much reads. (For instance, if almost everyone at $2 NL on Stars is a loose-passive or a loose-aggressive (which often seems to be the case), you can probably make a long term profit multitabling without any reads at all, by playing very nitty poker and creaming them for a big pot when you hit a big hand.)

But I can tell you that I didn't get any good at poker until I deemphasized the cards I have and started making predictions about what other players had and how they would respond to the various actions available to me. In other words, for me, reads are everything.

With KK and no reads, I am probably willing to raise quite a bit, even to aggressive play, when no ace or pair comes on the flop. So I am not saying your actual hand is completely unplayable without reads-- it isn't. You certainly are more likely than not to be ahead after the flop in this situation. (AK, on the other hand, desperately requires reads when no ace or king falls on the flop and someone bets before you.)

What I am saying is that when you ask "what does EP's action mean", THAT question is unanswerable without reads. EP's action could mean anything from "I probably have nothing" to "I have a draw" to "I have top pair and a good kicker" to "I have 2 pair or better and just cracked your kings on the flop". And to know what EP is most likely to be telling you, you either need to play one table and pay attention or you need to learn to incorporate a HUD into your multitable play.

As I said, with pocket kings in low stakes, I am not sure you actually need that much information to make a positive EV play. But you will be betting based solely on your supposition of what a generic player might have, when it is possible to put EP on a more specific range by watching the game closely or using the right software.

[ejaredx]

You mean PokerAceHud? Does that work with betfair? I play on betfair which is european (UK based)

[LawDude]

Hopefully there is a betfair user here on FTR who can tell you what HUD software to get. In the meantime, if you are concerned about this issue, you might try ratcheting down to one table and seeing if you can do your own reads. Even if you end up using an HUD and multitabling, this practice will still improve your game!

[loonychune]

7. Any reads on opponents? Not really, I'm playing 5 tables at once, I'm too much of a novice to be good at reading. SOME things are obvious like if they bet 1/2 pot they want you to call, especially on river, but other than that no.

I play a few 5-table sessions of Omaha Hi-Lo at the lower stakes every now and again and I'm really new to the game. Thing is, I'll probably have an edge over the games just by playing the correct starting hands and knowing roughly when it's going to be unprofitable to continue post-flop, so by multi-tabling I get to work on these aspects of the game.

This won't work at 50 NL Hold 'em (if it does, I think i'm joining Betfair and moving up 2 stakes).

If you're as new to Hold 'em as I am to Omaha Hi-Lo, you might want to play more tables at lower stakes or fewer tables at the higher stakes.

[ejaredx]

yea i was thinking to play a less amount of tables, but it gets a bit boring lol, as I fold 75-80% of my cards, need 4 tables at least so that I just dont sit there folding and getting bored for minutes on

[kb coolman]

Playing micro-limits; 25c/50c.

Around these parts, $50NL is entering mid-stakes. Micros are $2NL/$5NL, with small stakes at $10NL/$25NL.

What is your current bankroll? You should have a minimum of $1000 to be playing $50NL, and that's playing it tight.

Based soley on this thread, there are soooo many more things with your game we need to work on before breaking down a hand.

[kb coolman]

yea i was thinking to play a less amount of tables, but it gets a bit boring lol, as I fold 75-80% of my cards, need 4 tables at least so that I just dont sit there folding and getting bored for minutes on

You're actually playing too loose, IMO. Most of the regs around here fold more that 80% of all hands.

And playing multiple tables is fine, so long as you know what you're doing. You need to be crushing 2 tables, then 3, then 4. Unless you can keep up with the action on every table and take good notes on other players, you're playing too many tables.

[oskar]

yea i was thinking to play a less amount of tables, but it gets a bit boring lol, as I fold 75-80% of my cards, need 4 tables at least so that I just dont sit there folding and getting bored for minutes on

Practice getting reads. Try to put people on ranges even when you're not involved in a hand.