Cbetting in 3bet pot OOP

[AFchung]

Should I be cbetting this flop? KK/AA are easily in my range, and I fired a turn barrel to try and fold out lower PPs

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

CO ($20.55)
Button ($15.65)
SB ($1.90)
Hero (BB) ($11)
UTG ($9.50)
UTG+1 ($3.25)
MP1 ($12.95)
MP2 ($11.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A
5 folds, Button raises to $0.40, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.20, Button calls $0.80

Flop: ($2.45) 4, 7, 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.40, Button calls $1.40

Turn: ($5.25) J (2 players)
Hero bets $3.50, Button raises to $13, Hero folds

Total pot: $12.25 | Rake: $0.60

Betting the turn is retarded because he's never folding almost anything he called the flop with. If he called with 99-TT and decides to fold the turn it's like godly luck on your part. Now if he called with JJ+, AJ, 56, T9, 77, 88, 44, 78, JT, JQ he's shoving on you. That's a lot more hands. Now maybe he peeled with AQ or AK (discounted because he might 4b it) and will fold the turn. But a lot of people just openfold that flop when they miss anyway. You might get raised on the flop with a draw as well so if he has a suited hand he doesn't wait until the turn to raise it. This also discounts hands like T9.

Also, shitties don't think about your range. They know what hand they hold and how far they want to go with it. They usually just "put you on" AK and act accordingly while leaving some wiggle room for other hands.

[minSim]

Depending on villains 3bet calling range, this is either a cbet/give up, or c/f flop. And c/f is standard, imo.

[xX zorrito Xx]

c-bet is fine on the flop...

i personally give after i get called...

[bigspenda73]

c-bet is fine on the flop...

why?

[Erpel]

Hmm, my initial thought was that a button raise / 3-bet calling range would have a lot of made pairs in it, I think it's actually much wider than that. I don't expect many high aces (probably AJ, AQ, AK, somewhat discounted), but I wouldn't be surprised to see smaller suited connectors playing for implied odds. Unfortuately this means the flop hits a good portion of the opponents range, and the portion that isn't hit by the flop are mostly overpairs.

While I agree with cbetting smaller in 3bet pots in general because there is less money behind, I'm not sure the $1.40 into $2.45 is big enough to suggest that it's a defensive/value bet by AA or KK. Would you really bet $1.40 with AA or KK (and does your opponent expect this?)

On the turn raise, there's pretty much nothing you beat.
On the flop call, you are behind his range.
Even before your flop bet, your equity isn't that great against his range.

I guess the question really is: What is his BTN-open/3bet calling range? What part of his range will fold to a given size flop bet? Is there a flop bet size that is profitable on fold equity alone? If you bluff (and a cbet here is truly a bluff) and happen to hit an A or K on the turn, should you be willing to stack off?

I cbet 1/3 of the pot in 3b pots in SNGs in the later stages because I expect folds more often than 1/4 of the time
1.40 into 2.45 is not unreasonable, I will make a bet like that with AA/KK since putting my opponent all in is not terribly difficult in 3b pots

I mean, after I bet the turn I can shove the river for a PSB even though my flop bet was 1/2 pot

[Erpel]

I cbet 1/3 of the pot in 3b pots in SNGs in the later stages because I expect folds more often than 1/4 of the time
1.40 into 2.45 is not unreasonable, I will make a bet like that with AA/KK since putting my opponent all in is not terribly difficult in 3b pots

I mean, after I bet the turn I can shove the river for a PSB even though my flop bet was 1/2 pot

Yeah you would. But in cash at these limits with very poor players, sometimes you have to give hints with a sledge hammer for there to be any chance of them being picked up. Bluffing is typically not effective, because it doesn't occur to villains that you may be holding the hand that you represent. You really have to spell it out for them.

I don't disagree though. The principle of smaller cbets in 3bet pots is a good one, and I bet there is a bet size (smaller) that is +EV as a pure bluff. While against an observant opponent we should bet KK/AA the same size as our bluffs, against unobservan opponents we can feel free to make small bluffs and big value bets.

[Sir Pawnalot]

As an experiment I tried to play AK more passively preflop.

This is because of what iopq said, that a lot of dumbasses put you on AK when 3 betting pre.
If you hit an A or a K you get no action, unless villain has got a better hand. And if flop is low "no one" will believe you hit- making c-betting risky.

3- betting may make hands like AQ, AJ, AT to laydown preflop, which are those hands you want to play against. PP will call you pre and call your bluff.

This is just an experiment though. But I am getting more and more convinced that lines that get progressively stronger is more effective as bluffs. I really do not like 3 bet, c-bet, check-fold lines. I am more of a 3 bet, check-call, check-raise guy...

Hmm, all I wanted to say was that you do not always have to 3-bet AK. Consider different lines and how they will work against villains.

[xX zorrito Xx]

c-bet is fine on the flop...

why?

given the level and my experiences in the tables I generally sit at in this level I always assume loose passive/aggresive until proven otherwise...

given no read or history on villian I believe I'm ahead of half his range... ace rag... any two non paired face cards.... suited cards... more times than not I take the pot down with a c-bet in a 2 or even a 3-betted preflop pot...

I don't make this play against nits or tags... I generally cold call a raise with AK to those type of players especially OOP and if the flop comes out like that I might check raise...

lemme know if this is incorrect...

[oskar]

This is a flop you really do not want to c-bet. You're not folding out almost any hand that has you beat.

A button opening range is usually pretty wide, unless it's someone who doesn't steal. Your 3-bet is pretty modest, so I think you're getting called by a lot of speculative hands there, which include connectors, all pairs, maybe some single gap connectors, and the occasional QQ+ trying to trap you.
A lot of his range hit this flop. Let's just take connectors:
23, 34, 45, 56, 67, 78, 8T, TJ, JQ, QK
6 out of 10 hit that flop, and 23, 34 are kind of a strech anyway.
Single gappers:
24, 35, 46, 57, 68, 79, 8T, 9J, TQ, JK
6 out of 10 hit that flop, and 24, 35, 46 you can probably discard.
Ax, Kx will probably fold to the 3-bet, but if he calls he could easily have made a pair or an inside draw, and all pp's are very likely to call one street.
Flushdraws

If he has 2 suited cards he'll have a flushdraw here 20% of the time... if someone wants to figure out how much of his range is suited, that would give you a more useful number.

If you c-bet here OOP, you're probably c-betting close to 100% heads up. If your opponent uses a HUD, expect him to exploit that.
You can get away with c-betting too much at the micros because most of your opponents play fit-or-fold poker, and they won't raise on a bluff as much as they should, but this is something you'll have to work on at some point.