Why am i losing so much with QQ?

[AFchung]

I'm in negative money with QQ. I always have a lot of trouble between calling/folding when a K or A comes up

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($0.89)
SB ($5.37)
BB ($2.83)
UTG ($3.28)
UTG+1 ($2.97)
MP1 ($2.39)
MP2 ($2.19)
MP3 ($3.37)
Hero ($1.92)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, MP1 raises to $0.08, MP2 calls $0.08, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.32, 3 folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.24.

Flop: ($0.77) 4, 9, A (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.4, MP2 calls $0.40.

Turn: ($1.57) A (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($1.57) 2 (2 players)
MP2 bets $0.66, Hero calls $0.66.

Final Pot: $2.89

Results in white below:
MP2 has Ac Tc (three of a kind, aces).
Hero has Qs Qd (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: MP2 wins $2.89.

[Auhfel]

I am new, so I may be wrong on this.. but if you're holding QQ, and the flop hits an A, shouldn't you be very very cautious about wanting to continue this hand? Mostly because A lot of people tend to call with A's right? (Oh, wait. I think I'm mixing it with SnG, this was a ring game huh?) Either way, I think that when that A hit that it should have sent a clue to you, and especially when you bet and he called (Showing that he wasn't afraid that you could have an Ace, meaning it's likely that he also has the Ace) It's also possible for him to have hit two pair and not be afraid, but that's unlikely considering the 4-9 flop and his preflop actions.

I'm not saying the bet on the flop was bad, but continuing with it seems a little off to me.

Seeing how this is a Newbie PoV I would love for someone to correct me if I'm wrong.

(My action would have been to bet about .10-.15 on the flop to cbet, and when he called to check/fold unless a Q hit. Is this a viable course of action?)

[a500lbgorilla]

you can actually pretty confidently fold to that river bet.

[kmind]

Yes river is a fold.

But to help out a little more, aufel's advice is a good attempt but flawed. People usually don't tend to have an A in their hand when they call preflop (I guess unless the stakes are really low so I guess they'll contain an A more often than small stakes here). But anyways, our range has an A here more often preflop, but I feel like we can check behind flop and try to get 2 streets of value in these stakes. If the action does go check/check flop, check/we bet/he calls turn, then on river I may actually just check behind. Depends on villain on whether or not I actually want 2 streets of value. I just don't feel like people call flop often enough without an A at these stakes.

[Stacks]

I've wanted to ask about this for a bit. Should this be approached the same way as KK on an Axx board? I'm thinking it should because the only hand that we would scare out with a bet that we beat is KK, and that doesn't happen very often that we have QQ v KK.

So, if I assume correctly then betting the flop accomplished nothing really. When you bet you want a few things to happen, (1) Better hands to fold... (2) Worse hands to call.... (3) Protect our hand.

What better hands fold here? KK might if the player is incredibly weak/tight, but the line he took is the exact line I take when I have KK oop on an Axx board. Ax isn't folding as only a stupid player would raise preflop, call a 3b and then c/f a flop when they hit. Two pairs and sets are obviously not folding here. So pretty much no better hands fold this flop.

What worse hands call? Well alot of players are incredibly afraid of an Axx board when there is action preflop (and generally they are always scared no matter what). So while there are some worse hands that MAY call (9x, 4x, TT, JJ), those are few and far between and you can't always count on a call from them. Especially since you 3b preflop and then bet on an Axx board.

Does our hand need protection? Not really. Sure he may have Kx and a K could come and that would suck, but you could easily get away from QQ on a AxxK board facing a bet usually. But there is no flush draw, or straight draw. And even if there was, I probably wouldn't bet here anyways.

So I think we should be checking behind on this flop. If he checks again on the turn, I'm not so sure if we should be checking again or betting. If it was an undercard and he checked again on the turn I would put a bet out there, generally thinking it was for value. But since the turn is an Ace I wonder if there is any reason to bet turn despite the fact he has shown alot of weakness. We probably still don't fold out KK. But we may now get calls from weaker pps, as the chances of us having an A has decreaced. So they may be more likedly to call with JJ, TT, 9x, etc. So I'm not sure what the correct play is on the turn. I'm really not sure. I probably check and call a river bet. But our hand isn't that weak (despite when it's against Ax, 99, 44) so we may want to put in a value bet on the turn. Maybe someone better can clear this up.

Also note that if he bets the turn, I'm calling here, as we have somewhat under-represented our hand and may have caused some weaker hands to take a stab at the pot here.

If he bets the turn, then again on the river I may let it go, if the bet is sizable. If he checks turn and I check behind, I'm gonna be calling the river bet. If he checks turn and I bet and he calls then leads the river, I probably find a fold here. If at any point he c/rs I fold easily.

That's just my thoughts. But I don't now too much yet.


Auhfel - Your idea of c-betting .10-.15 isn't good. The pot is .77c on the flop. Your betting way too small there. Almost any hand is gonna call such a small bet. So you really aren't seeing where you stand if that's what you were trying to do. But above is why I don't think betting is all that good in the first place on the flop. A standard c-bet amount is between 1/2 and full pot. Generally 2/3 or 3/4 get the job done. So if you had AK here would you bet .10-.15?? I would hope not. But you do it when your hand is weaker?? Good players will pick up on that and start folding to your bigger bets and raising all your tiny bets, which will really mess with your since your big bets are for value and your small are for bluffs. Therefore, it your c-bet size should be the same no matter if you have a monster or air. Your hand strength really shouldn't determine your c-bet amount. The texture of the board and the liklihood your opponent will call the size of the bet should I think.

*disclaimer: I could be totally full of shit, so let a better player confirm or deny before you take what I said to heart.

[AFchung]

I've wanted to ask about this for a bit. Should this be approached the same way as KK on an Axx board? I'm thinking it should because the only hand that we would scare out with a bet that we beat is KK, and that doesn't happen very often that we have QQ v KK.

So, if I assume correctly with about then betting the flop accomplished nothing really. When you bet you want a few things to happen, (1) Better hands to fold... (2) Worse hands to call.... (3) Protect our hand.

What better hands fold here? KK might if the player is incrdibly weak/tight, but the line he took is the exact line I take when I have KK oop on an Axx board. Ax isn't folding unless as only a stupid player woudl raise preflop, call a 3b and then c/f a flop when they hit. Two pairs and sets are obviously not folding here. So pretty much no better hands fold this flop.

What worse hands call? Well alot of players are incredibly afraid of an Axx board when there is action preflop (and generally they are always scared no matter what). So while there are some worse hands that MAY call (9x, 4x, TT, JJ), those are few and far between and you can't always count on a call from them. Especially since you 3b preflopandthen bet on an Axx board.

Does our hand need protection? Not really. Sure he may have Kx and a K could come and that would suck, but you could easily get away from QQ on a AxxK board facing a bet usually. But there is no flush draw, or straight draw. And even if there was, I probably wouldn't bet here anyways.

So I think we should be checking behind on this flop. If he checks again on the turn, I'm not so sure if we should be checking again or betting. If it was an undercard and he checked again on the turn I would put a bet out there, generally thinking it was for value. But since the turn is an Ace I wonder if there is any reason to bet turn despite the fact he has shown alot of weakness. We probably still don't fold out KK. But we may now get calls from weaker pps, as the chances of us having an A has decreaced. So they may be more likedly to call with JJ, TT, 9x, etc. So I'm not sure what the correct play is on the turn. I'm really not sure. I probably check and called a river bet. But our hand isn't that weak (despite when it's against Ax, 99, 44) so we may want to put in a value bet on the turn. Maybe someone better can clear this up.

Also note that if he bets the turn, I'm calling here, as we have somewhat under-represented our hand and may have causes some weaker hands to take a stab at the pot here.

If he bets the turn, then again on the river I may let it go, if the bet is sizable. If he checks turn and I check behind, I'm gonna be calling the river bet. If he checks turn and I bet and he calls then leads the river, I probably find a fold here. If at any point he c/rs I fold easily.

That's just my thoughts. But I don't now too much yet.


Auhfel - Your idea of c-betting .10-.15 isn't good. The pot is .77c on the flop. Your betting way too small there. Almost any hand is gonna call such a small bet. So you really aren't seeing where you stand if that's what you were trying to do. But above is why I don't think betting is all that good in the first place on the flop.

*disclaimer: I could be totally full of shit, so let a better player confirm or deny before you take what I said to heart.

check-check on flop and for sure villain will throw a bet on the turn. would i just muck it here? or call this street and see the next card

[Stacks]

I'm pretty sure villian throw a bet out on the turn too as he wants to build a pot with his hand. However, he may try to check-raise, that's why I'm wondering if we bet turn or not if he does check.

If he does bet, I would say call, as we have somewhat under-represented our hand. So now hands like TT, JJ, 9x, and maybe some total air hands will try to take the pot. Raising doesn't do anything as the hands we beat here would fold and only the hands that beat up would call/re-raise.

If he bets and you call turn. On the river it's kinda read dependent in my opinion. If he is passive or straight-forward, I would muck. If he was incredibly aggressive and very likley to play a wide range of hands this way I may find a call. But I probably muck to most bets.

[a500lbgorilla]

checking behind on the flop would be a really good move. By betting you're squeezing value from good 2nd pair hands which you have beat, but you can induce 1 bet bluffs from all sorts if you check behind... though you run the risk of leveling yourself by calling 2 streets with this hand.

[bjsaust]

Stop putting so much money in with 2nd pair .

Good advice so far on how to play the specific hand, so wont go into that. Just remember its fine to fold big PPs if you now believe you're behind postflop.

[Stacks]

Yea dont put much money in with seconds pair Q;s are strong pre flop but when a A or K hits flop be prepared to fold unless you wona get all ur chips in pre flop and preventing you from having to make hard descions further on in the hand

I'm sure he was willing to get it all in preflop here with QQ, and generally every spot preflop with QQ at 5nl. However, doesn't mean he should just give up on the hand just because an over comes. You just have to play it a littl emore clever than bet, bet, bet.

[jyms]

IF you haven't read it yet, gabes thread on KK when an A flops is pretty damn good. Albeit this is QQ most of the thoughts still apply. My only concern is giving too many free cards here since a K can still see a showdown cheaply if the turn brings one. I tend to let one street get checked through in hopes of getting a bet out of the villain with a non A hand. I don't expect to get two streets of betting from most $25NL and under players with an A on board.

Here's the link.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...highlight=flop

[AFchung]

here's another stupid hand with QQ. please advise. was i suppose to get away from the hand with his bet? this was the flop i hoped for

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($1.97)
SB ($3.01)
BB ($1.40)
UTG ($2.98)
UTG+1 ($3.08)
MP1 ($2.20)
MP2 ($0.99)
MP3 ($1.70)
CO ($5.60)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, Q.
5 folds, CO calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.12, 1 fold, BB raises to $0.4, CO folds, Hero calls $0.28.

Flop: ($0.83) 8, T, 4 (2 players)
BB bets $1 (All-In), Hero calls $1.

Turn: ($2.83) K (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($2.83) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $2.83

Results in white below:
BB has As Ah (one pair, aces).
Hero has Qc Qd (one pair, queens).
Outcome: BB wins $2.83.

I don't know, maybe you should raise less. Even against one limper, what's wrong with raising 4x BB?

[Stacks]

AF start raising 4xbb + 1bb per limper so that would make it $0.10c raiser preflop. And no, at 2nl you shouldn't be getting away from a hand like this (overpair). Ez call preflop and an easy call on the flop. If he checks flop you should bet enough that he will be wanting to call or push over, however no matter what the turn card is you have to call a shove. So like $0.60 or so.

[AFchung]

AF start raising 4xbb + 1bb per limper so that would make it $0.10c raiser preflop. And no, at 2nl you shouldn't be getting away from a hand like this (overpair). Ez call preflop and an easy call on the flop. If he checks flop you should bet enough that he will be wanting to call or push over, however no matter what the turn card is you have to call a shove. So like $0.60 or so.

so does this mean that going broke here is ultimately the right move? what is QQ on that flop vs a shove suppose to be able to beat anyways?

[Stacks]

Your getting almost 2:1 to make that call with an overpair. He could have whiffed overs, AT, JJ, and other crap that you beat. Now if he shoved some very large amount I might find a fold. But not getting 2:1 with an overpair here.

[kmind]

you fail to give reads which is huge, just something to think about.

And about raising PF 4x+1 limper, that can be good at most stakes but if they are calling a shitload then make them make bigger mistakes. Start poker stoving ranges and see how profitable calling these allins are. If you aren't comfortable with having the right range then don't hesitate to post those here as well.

[AFchung]

i believe he was something like 75/25. i felt he could've really had any two cards and probably hit twopair with it :\

[kmind]

Wait why do you think he hit two pair with it? You need to stop thinking like that in this type of situation.

[AFchung]

Wait why do you think he hit two pair with it? You need to stop thinking like that in this type of situation.

oops haha, i posted in the wrong thread i was referring to this thread
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ro-t74248.html

anyways for this hand, i thought that since another ace came out, he probably wouldn't have one and if he did then he would have at least bet on the flop or almost certainly on the turn. I was hoping he had a lower PP

also, could someone elaborate on why i shouldnt cbet? i read xxstacksxx's post but after reading a lot about cbetting on 2+2 they've made it seem that I should pretty much always cbet

[sil693]

when you cbet w QQ on an Axx flop what hands that are worse than yours will villain continue with?? they're not going to fold anything that beats you (KK might if its some nitnitnit) and Ax isnt folding. by cbetting you get no value from worse hands and only get called by better.

[jyms]

also, could someone elaborate on why i shouldnt cbet? i read xxstacksxx's post but after reading a lot about cbetting on 2+2 they've made it seem that I should pretty much always cbet

This is why I posted the thread in my first post. This is all discussed there.

[wellrounded08]

The difference in this particular hand and the one you linked Jyms(Thanks for linking it by the way. I t was a great insight.), is that w/ K's there is no drawing pair to beat you. if a Q shows up, no big deal you got'em beat. If a K shows up in this situation, you are almost certainly beat. So maybe betting here and taking it down before a drawing hand get's you is the better choice. I mean, maybe they're holding A PP, that's two outs, and maybe they're holding Kx, that's three more.

Then again, it isn't a hard lay down if the K pops up. And if It doesn't you can pretty much call down small bets.... Hmm I dunno, Someone tell me.

Please correct me If I'm wrong. I just thought this a valid point.

The difference in this particular hand and the one you linked Jyms(Thanks for linking it by the way. I t was a great insight.), is that w/ K's there is no drawing pair to beat you. if a Q shows up, no big deal you got'em beat. If a K shows up in this situation, you are almost certainly beat. So maybe betting here and taking it down before a drawing hand get's you is the better choice. I mean, maybe they're holding A PP, that's two outs, and maybe they're holding Kx, that's three more.

Then again, it isn't a hard lay down if the K pops up. And if It doesn't you can pretty much call down small bets.... Hmm I dunno, Someone tell me.

Please correct me If I'm wrong. I just thought this a valid point.

There isn't a huge difference between a two outer and a three-outer

[wellrounded08]

Assume that person didn't have the ace. If one person had a PP, and the other had the K. That would be 5 outs. In this case Hero did make a sizable bet and got called, which means they had the ace or hit trips.(Not always I know.) But in many scenarios if they didn't have the ace they would fold their PP or Kx. Which means they couldn't draw a better hand on you. 1/5 times, they will catch their draw, and beat your Q's. So my question as a beginner is, is the Bet +EV?

[a500lbgorilla]

Assume that person didn't have the ace. If one person had a PP, and the other had the K. That would be 5 outs. In this case Hero did make a sizable bet and got called, which means they had the ace or hit trips.(Not always I know.) But in many scenarios if they didn't have the ace they would fold their PP or Kx. Which means they couldn't draw a better hand on you. 1/5 times, they will catch their draw, and beat your Q's. So my question as a beginner is, is the Bet +EV?

so you're betting sizeably only to get called by better hands and fold out all worse hands?

You answered your own question, unless you think that the opponent will peel 1 light to either 1) play back at you later as a bluff or 2) cuz donkeys love to draw, then you should check.

When you check, he'll think his second pair may be good or that his pocket pair may be good. Given a non-scarey turn, you could get 1 street of value out of your opponent AND know when to get away from QQ if op throws money in the pot awkwardly.

[a500lbgorilla]

As a quick helpful hint, you should probably throw out the notion of "betting to protect your hand" and figure out how to maneuver around to earn the most streets of value from your opponent.

If you have a better hand, and they'll pay to draw, you're not protecting, you're pumping your opp for as much value as possible while you're ahead.

[wellrounded08]

Ok ok. I totatally see what your saying. Thanks for the reply. I suppose I've been in a protect phase. I understand.