AK... fold TPTK?

[CorbinDallas]

PokerStars Game #15068850670: Tournament #76072725, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level XVI (2000/4000) - 2008/02/05 - 00:20:49 (ET)
Table '76072725 8' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: cvail001 (185291 in chips)
Seat 2: aeisen5 (66584 in chips)
Seat 3: scrface1 (149621 in chips)
Seat 4: foldumbum (189728 in chips)
Seat 5: windowbobby (36347 in chips)
Seat 6: wcsquad3 (51686 in chips)
Seat 7: youngbuck25 (156544 in chips)
Seat 8: Polax (62752 in chips)
Seat 9: sritchierose (195975 in chips)
cvail001: posts the ante 400
aeisen5: posts the ante 400
scrface1: posts the ante 400
foldumbum: posts the ante 400
windowbobby: posts the ante 400
wcsquad3: posts the ante 400
youngbuck25: posts the ante 400
Polax: posts the ante 400
sritchierose: posts the ante 400
foldumbum: posts small blind 2000
windowbobby: posts big blind 4000
*** HOLE CARDS *** (cvail001 has AKo)
wcsquad3: folds
youngbuck25: folds
Polax: folds
sritchierose said, "ty,gg"
sritchierose: calls 4000
cvail001: raises 12000 to 16000
aeisen5: folds
scrface1: folds
foldumbum: calls 14000
windowbobby: folds
sritchierose: folds
*** FLOP *** [4h Kd Jc]
foldumbum: checks
cvail001: bets 30000
foldumbum: calls 30000
*** TURN *** [4h Kd Jc] [6c]
foldumbum: checks
cvail001: bets 65000
aeisen5 said, "big pot"
foldumbum: raises 65000 to 130000

cvail001 ???

[johnny_fish]

Check the turn if you don't know what to do with a c/r. As played, get it in.

[drmcboy]

yeah with only one legit draw I think you can safely check turn if you don't want to get all the money in, he'll probably value bet some Ks on river or maybe try and bluff with something silly like AT.

But I think this is fine too and vs an unknown (who you probably can't expect to bluff much on river) it's better. I know it feels like a set/KJ but he'd probably play KQ/KT types the same.

[CorbinDallas]

i am surprised by those suggestions. would anything change if you knew your place in the tourney was 12th with 200 left? would it change if this was a higher BI tourney... say the 27 or 55 FO, or higher BI's?

are we always going broke to AA or a set here? doesn't a check raise on the turn usually mean TPTK is beat?

what can we beat on the turn? KQ, KT, QQ, any draw like AQc, KQc, QTc. do any of those hands c/c flop and c/r turn? i think top pair is betting out or c/r flop. QTc would check call. only a monster is slow playing like this right? AA, KJ, or a set.

folding gives us 76k left. which is probably an average stack at this point.

is there any merit to this kind of assesment?

[drmcboy]

What conclusions can you draw about how you should play a draw given your assessment?

Regarding the TP hands, if they bet out they will usually only get raised if beat and if they get called it's guess time. But here, they can hope you bluff off some chips before they annouce they have a hand. Don't get me wrong, often they play as you describe but with no read you have to open your mind up to other options.

You only have to be good ~1 time in three (almost 1/4 I think, I'm too lazy to count the pot) to play here with the price the pot is laying.

doesn't a check raise on the turn usually mean TPTK is beat?

platitudes and adages and rules are not winning poker.

would anything change if you knew your place in the tourney was 12th with 200 left?

yes, if I was wanting to finish 150th. No if I wanted to win. If you want to finish 150, play 1 table SNGs.

would it change if this was a higher BI tourney... say the 27 or 55 FO, or higher BI's?

No, it would change with a read. If you put a gun to my head I'd say people might over play TP here less at higher BIs, but that is countered by them playing draws faster.

Mostly I would make at most small adjustments to your standard unknown play based on buy in and most of those would be on the river. If you never make one it won't be a big mistake. 3 bucks is 100 bucks to a lot of people.

[elipsesjeff]

I really dont mind a turn check at all, especially if you don't have the ace or king of clubs. it'll get you value out of worse hands and lots of people will bet at you with complete air.

[CorbinDallas]

i really didn't have a read at all. villain had recently sat down... 10 hands earlier... and hadn't been splashing around... but its only 10 hands so who knows.

What conclusions can you draw about how you should play a draw given your assessment?

could you rephrase that? i'll answer as i understand it.... big draws, if played correctly, are as threatening as a set to top pair.

jeff- a check just seems so weak... we're not gonna fire again holding AK?

hmmm...... since we are in position a check might be brilliant. we look like we missed or we have QQ, TT, 99, AJ. so villain might want to get paid something for his monster and throw out 45k and then we just call. depending who we're up against... we might see a value bet of even less... and we win a nice pot against all the hands we beat.

can we really do this in the heat of battle?

[CorbinDallas]

but if river is a total blank card like 2hearts... and we get check raised on the river...

[drmcboy]

I'm trying to get you to see your logic from the other side.

If you consider folding TP to this action to be correct, then if you end up with QT in this situation, you should always call the flop and CR the turn because your opp will fold anything worse than two pair which is surely the vast majority of his range.

My guess is you don't play QT that way, which is fine, but realize that a lot of people will for exactly these reasons. Or, they will play it just like you think your opp would have played KQ here.

can we really do this in the heat of battle?

If you can't check top pair sometimes, I would try and play in tourneys where you are almost never deeper than 20BBs, but more I would work on that. Pot control is important.

You get check raised on the river (as a bluff or for value) so rarely in tourneys I wouldn't give it much thought.

[chardrian]

hmm TPTK is generally gold in tournies.

exception to rule - you are super deep stacked.

I agree with J_fish. If a check-raise is gonna make you barf here than just check behind on the turn. Since you fired again it seems that you had already made your decision so follow through and get it all in.

The big thing here is that I don't think you thought one move ahead. I think that's probably the biggest difference between good players (by good I mean players that are +ROI) and great players (have really good ROIs). Good players can get by simply by playing their cards, their stacks, and their position and letting the game come to them. Great players not only do this but they also know what they're going to do to counter their opponents possible moves - and by doing so they force themselves onto the game rather than the other way around.

[CorbinDallas]

ok. so as played... the pot is to damn big to fold to the check raise. which is what johnny and dr are saying.

from my experience... which is micro level tourneys... i just don't see KQ, KT check raising the turn... they'd be more apt to check raise their TP thinking the bet in position is just a bluff. but this situation is slightly different cuz both players are deep stacked.

If you consider folding TP to this action to be correct, then if you end up with QT in this situation, you should always call the flop and CR the turn because your opp will fold anything worse than two pair which is surely the vast majority of his range.

My guess is you don't play QT that way, which is fine, but realize that a lot of people will for exactly these reasons. Or, they will play it just like you think your opp would have played KQ here.

interesting. ok so being that we ARE deep stacked, a check behind IS the best action then. we control the pot and don't commit ourselves. johnny, dr, char... would you guys agree with jeff?

[elipsesjeff]

jeff- a check just seems so weak... we're not gonna fire again holding AK?

The problem is you're repping the exact hand you have. Checking behind gets you tons of value from worse hands that fold the turn, as well as keeping you from stacking off when way behind.

Take a second and think about what your opponent might have, what he'll pay you off with and what he thinks you have according to your actions when you make a decision here (and in general).

[johnny_fish]

Checking behind good but not great hands in position on the turn is a very standard play. Also a fairly easy concept to grasp so get it in your arsenal as soon as possible.

You got yourself in a pretty bad spot by betting here. Without generalizing too much, a turn check/minraise usually means strength. At this 3$ level they could see any top pair hand as a strong hand which means you have to get the rest in.

But the lesson you have to learn here is why checking behind is the best play; assign a range after the flop to villain and see what happens against that.

blehhh, long post, I'll keep it shorter next time

[donkbee]

blehhh, long post, I'll keep it shorter next time

nah, we like it when you make long posts!