WA/WB hand from tonight... played okay?

[sarbox68]

$10NL UB. Villain is TPA. I limp the 99 from the button because the pot is so MW so I'm looking for a set. Hit it on the flop on a very drawie board. Get a weak 1/3 PSB from EP and a call, so raise up PS to try and close out flush and straight draws. SB shoves. Other two drop.

So now it's HU. I figure the worst and put SB on a made straight. To my math, that puts me 2:1 against (36% to win) to quad or boat by the river (1 9, 3 Js, 3 Ts plus somethin' fuzzy for a possible paired T&R. By my math, I have to put in $2 to call his raise to get 2:1 to win $8.30 (over 4:1). That makes it a snap call for me, based purely on the pot odds.

1) Was the line to this point correct?
2) Was my reasoning behind calling this correct?

BTW... my push over his AI was just to get his last .20 in. I hate loose change......

Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05./$0.10.
10 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $12.03
UTG+1: $9.74
UTG+2: $8.87
MP1: $9.51
MP2: $10.66
MP3: $11.02
Hero: $5.86
Button: $9.55
SB: $4.90
BB: $2

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is CO with 9 9
UTG raises to $0.2, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: T J 9 ($1.3, 6 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $0.5, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, Hero raises to $2.5, SB raises to $4.5, 3 folds, Hero raises all-in $5.66, SB calls all-in $.20.


Turn: 4 ($2.14, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $11.70)


River: 3 ($2.14, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $11.70)


Results:
Final pot: $11.70

[daven]

why so sure villain flopped the straight? jt, j9 ten9 play similar lines. At this level I think tenten and jj are raising pre-flop so i;m not scared of those. Basically qk and 78 have you beat, I'm not expecting to see q8 here (and not really 78 either), the rest don't. Maybe even a flush draw. I like your line.
And the harder bit, if I knew they had qk then would I call...
calling $2 into an $8.5 pot. Your outs are pretty clean. Seven of them, times two. Plus the unlikely turn-river pair. Think I would call even then, but only just.

[badgers]

And the really really easy bit, if I knew they had qk then would I call...

FYP.

Yes, you should call very quickly. You're getting over 4:1 to hit and you're less than 3:1 just thinking about your 7 outs, you have 10 outs on the turn. Ask yourself if you would even consider folding a flush draw here.

[bigspenda73]

nh

[bode]

nh

[Jibalob]

WA/WB ???

[ChrisBCritter]

WA/WB ???

Way ahead/Way behind

[cardsman1992]

Call with fistpumping action....

As stated, you can't put them on a made straight, you really need to figure an approximate range and decide if you are okay against that range....

[miracleriver]

How is it a WA/WB situation?

[sarbox68]

I read it as such 'cause I had the set... which put me WA of anyone w/ Jx, two pair, and a draw or WB a made straight on the flop. Maybe not the best example but in the ballpark...

[bigspenda73]

This is wa/wb to me: you have KK PF, you know your opponent has eithe AA/QQ, that's WA/WB. You're a 4:1 favorite or a dog at 1:4.

It's really a limit term in a sense. It's like this. A TAGG opens UTG and you call with JTs OTB.

Flop come T42 rainbow. TAGG bets and now you're way ahead/way behind. His range is made of overpairs and overcards and hands like 99/88. You have 5 outs if behind and he has 6 outs if you're ahead.

The question then becomes, what is the best play? A lot of times in wa/wb spots I play passively until the board matures.

[Miffed22001]

you flopped a set, never fold the flop. Nh

[miracleriver]

I read it as such 'cause I had the set... which put me WA of anyone w/ Jx, two pair, and a draw or WB a made straight on the flop. Maybe not the best example but in the ballpark...

My understanding of WA/WB is that you must be WA or WB of all the hands in villain's range. In the hand you posted, there are 6 players to the flop in a -- for all intended purposes -- limped pot. So villains' range is wide; some of those hands you are ahead of but barely.

[Miffed22001]

RUle number 1 of small stakes NL:

never fold a set for 100bbs on the flop.

[martindcx1e]

this is not wa/wb

[sarbox68]

My understanding of WA/WB is that you must be WA or WB of all the hands in villain's range. In the hand you posted, there are 6 players to the flop in a -- for all intended purposes -- limped pot. So villains' range is wide; some of those hands you are ahead of but barely.

Lemme start this by saying I'm gonna be the last person to assume I'm right....

My thought process on the WA/WB wasn't related to the weak bettor and caller... it was the push RR of my 3x+ R, and who I eventually ended up HU against after it had been folded back around to me. The range I put him on based on that bet set the context for my WA/WB consideration. Obv the initial weak bettor & caller could have been on a wide range of stuff, but I stopped caring about them once they'd folded

[sarbox68]

BTW... how many comments do I have to get before I get one of those flamey thingies on my post icon???

... always wanted me one of those....

[Chopper]

you flopped a set, never fold the flop. Nh

and at lower stakes, you can make a case for not folding post flop at all, too. you can pour on the gas, which you did, and when you get interest in a deeper stack (for next time), you can slow down when the fourth str8 or flush card hits...but, DONT FOLD them. you have a 20% chance to suckout the river 95% of the time. and by that time, there is so damned much money in the middle, it would be criminal to drop the hand because of the odds you would be getting.

its kind of like the good ole debate of dropping KK pf. you need to be 100% sure you are beat when you give up. but, with the set, you have a nice redraw almost everytime.

and i think WA/WB is more used for very dry boards in its most simplistic forms. you may be WA/WB here, but the board is sooooo "wet" that you need to punish draws, even if you are behind...because its still very likely you are ahead. you just have too many outs/possibilities out against you to play it safe/slower here.

and, in other WA/WB situations, we are looking for a way to get value, without folding off the losers with aggression. here, theres no way the losers are going anywhere if they have the draws...so charge them.

nh.

[martindcx1e]

sarbox, just so you know for the future "WA" means waaaaay ahead (like villain only has like 2 outs or something). it's a spot where you aren't afraid to let them draw cuz they will rarely hit. against actual draws like straights and flushes they complete far too often to allow this so when someone is on a real draw you aren't considered WA.

its kind of like the good ole debate of dropping KK pf. you need to be 100% sure you are beat when you give up.

i know i'm off topic here but i def. disagree with this.

[Miffed22001]

In small stakes Nl we have two cardinal rules;

1. Thow shalt never fold KK preflop for 100bbs.

2. Thou shalt never fold a set on the flop for 100bbs.

After that we can argue for anything.

[Jack Sawyer]

Cardinal rules? More like commandments.

[Chopper]

its kind of like the good ole debate of dropping KK pf. you need to be 100% sure you are beat when you give up.

i know i'm off topic here but i def. disagree with this.

this isnt for you, martin, because i know you get away from this one.

read: villain is sooooooo tight passive, and has always shown the nuts...always. over 100 hands of history with this rock, and i wanted to drop this sooooooo bad, but YOU DONT DROP KK pf!! and heres why. i was 100 Fing percent sure it was AA.

say what you want about being a bit short here, but that isnt the point of the HH.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($31.55)
Hero ($16.10)
MP ($12.45)
Button ($200.10)
SB ($25.55)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K.
Hero raises to $0.75, MP calls $0.75, 1 fold, SB raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero raises to $7.5, MP folds, SB raises to $25.55, Hero calls $8.60 (All-In).

Flop: ($33.20) 3, T, 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($33.20) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($33.20) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $33.20

Results in white below:
Hero has Ks Kd (one pair, kings).
SB has As Qd (high card, ace).
Outcome: Hero wins $33.20. SB wins $9.45.

dont lay them down. dont.

[Miffed22001]

Cardinal rules? More like commandments.

Id call them 'the first two laws of Fnord' but we can go with this.

[martindcx1e]

its kind of like the good ole debate of dropping KK pf. you need to be 100% sure you are beat when you give up.

i know i'm off topic here but i def. disagree with this.

this isnt for you, martin, because i know you get away from this one.

read: villain is sooooooo tight passive, and has always shown the nuts...always. over 100 hands of history with this rock, and i wanted to drop this sooooooo bad, but YOU DONT DROP KK pf!! and heres why. i was 100 Fing percent sure it was AA.

say what you want about being a bit short here, but that isnt the point of the HH.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($31.55)
Hero ($16.10)
MP ($12.45)
Button ($200.10)
SB ($25.55)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K.
Hero raises to $0.75, MP calls $0.75, 1 fold, SB raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero raises to $7.5, MP folds, SB raises to $25.55, Hero calls $8.60 (All-In).

Flop: ($33.20) 3, T, 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($33.20) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($33.20) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $33.20

Results in white below:
Hero has Ks Kd (one pair, kings).
SB has As Qd (high card, ace).
Outcome: Hero wins $33.20. SB wins $9.45.

dont lay them down. dont.

lol 64bb stack. i hope ppl don't lay it down for that little.

[Chopper]

martin, youre killing me. we might be equally arrogant.

[martindcx1e]

martin, youre killing me. we might be equally arrogant.

[Jack Sawyer]

its kind of like the good ole debate of dropping KK pf. you need to be 100% sure you are beat when you give up.

i know i'm off topic here but i def. disagree with this.

this isnt for you, martin, because i know you get away from this one.

read: villain is sooooooo tight passive, and has always shown the nuts...always. over 100 hands of history with this rock, and i wanted to drop this sooooooo bad, but YOU DONT DROP KK pf!! and heres why. i was 100 Fing percent sure it was AA.

say what you want about being a bit short here, but that isnt the point of the HH.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($31.55)
Hero ($16.10)
MP ($12.45)
Button ($200.10)
SB ($25.55)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K.
Hero raises to $0.75, MP calls $0.75, 1 fold, SB raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero raises to $7.5, MP folds, SB raises to $25.55, Hero calls $8.60 (All-In).

Flop: ($33.20) 3, T, 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($33.20) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($33.20) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $33.20

Results in white below:
Hero has Ks Kd (one pair, kings).
SB has As Qd (high card, ace).
Outcome: Hero wins $33.20. SB wins $9.45.

dont lay them down. dont.

Raise more pf utg

[Chopper]

couldnt here. i was earlier, and got no customers. i dropped to 3X, starting getting action, and then got dealt this.

i know people like to say, "raise more often and you'll get more action," but i prefer to drop to 3X and lure the passives into calling my standard ranges with dominated shit. otherwise, imo, they wait for the goods to call big raises and it puts me in the dominated position.

[martindcx1e]

couldnt here. i was earlier, and got no customers. i dropped to 3X, starting getting action, and then got dealt this.

i know people like to say, "raise more often and you'll get more action," but i prefer to drop to 3X and lure the passives into calling my standard ranges with dominated shit. otherwise, imo, they wait for the goods to call big raises and it puts me in the dominated position.

how long did it take for you to decide to lower your pfr? it could just be that everyone had absolute crap a few times in a row when you raised. anyways i really doubt that anyone would call a 3x pfr but not a 4x pfr with any hand. it really doesn't make a difference.

[Chopper]

you would think so, i agree. but, lately i have noticed it seems to be making a difference at times. i know it sounds weird.

also, i notice that any raise over 6X folds off limpers, too. thats both good and bad.

[Warpe]

Raise more pf utg

no...unless the purpose of your raise is to get folds

[Chopper]

hey, thanks warpe. absolutely no offense to jack ( i agree to a degree). i always thought that 3X was weak, too. i, however, use it when the table consistently folds around. i think you have to adjust to what the table allows, or find another table. btw, i was getting ready to leave this one, too.

granted, i didnt want it 4 way here, but 3 way, i was willing to gamble with...provided the A didnt drop.

[Jack Sawyer]

Raise more pf utg

no...unless the purpose of your raise is to get folds

the purpose of the raise is to build a pot and isolate
if you don't care about iso, those who called a 3xbb raise will also call 4xbb raise, probably not a 5xbb raise

[Jack Sawyer]

couldnt here. i was earlier, and got no customers. i dropped to 3X, starting getting action, and then got dealt this.

i know people like to say, "raise more often and you'll get more action," but i prefer to drop to 3X and lure the passives into calling my standard ranges with dominated shit. otherwise, imo, they wait for the goods to call big raises and it puts me in the dominated position.

I agree with martin's take, Maybe they were being dealt crap.
and about offense: none taken m8, you are my buddy

[Warpe]

Raise more pf utg

no...unless the purpose of your raise is to get folds

the purpose of the raise is to build a pot and isolate
if you don't care about iso, those who called a 3xbb raise will also call 4xbb raise, probably not a 5xbb raise

Raise 3x UTG and you are in better shape to call a reraise with a lot of hands. My standard is pot, actually - 3.5xbb UTG.

[Chopper]

thats another thing i found with the 3X raise. from button or really early, it seems to encourage 3bets. not a bad thing with AKs or QQ+. horrible thing with 67s, which you wouldnt raise UTG anyway, but might from button.

[sarbox68]

Okay...
1) I got a flaming icon thingie on the post list... My life is complete.
2) I absolutely find at $10NL opening 4x+ # of limpers can leave u mostly with the blinds in hand. Have had to play around w/ this, 'specially w/ AA-KK. I've been keeping it a 4x to open UTG 'just 'cause I've found 3x invites one caller... which then invites a sh!t-pot full more 'cause the odds keep getting consecutively better and better. Before I know it, my MW 4-deep. I've dialed it back from MP/LP if opening/few limpers if I want to at least get HU on the flop, 'cause 4x+# of limps was folding the table out 85+% of the time which sucked with the monsters.

[Chopper]

dude, you gotta know they can see your cards, right? when you have AA, those get dealt face up!! thats why they all fold to a 6X or minraise. it doesnt seem to matter...lol.

seriously, though, you do run that chance of multiple callers when you bet 3X from UTG. you use it on tight tables or cold tables (the kind you should leave the second you figure that out). if the table is loose or aggressive, i want to go even 5X UTG. it just depends on the table's style. dont be afraid to change it up to find what will work on a particular table.

on the old party (US player here that no longer knows how wild party is), i NEVER went down to 4X. there was no need, players called 6-8X all day. and that was up at 50 and 100NL. btw, that doesnt change the odds behind the first caller though. if he calls, everyone still jumps in with decent to great odds.

[sarbox68]

dude, you gotta know they can see your cards, right? when you have AA, those get dealt face up!!

I thought I had to buy that software from that dude that he paid like $400 for but would give it to me for $60 and would tell me what cards people had, but not all the time only some of the time, like when the cards it told you ended up being the ones that the other person had and that would make me a sh!tpot full of money...

[Chopper]

yeah, i think OJ Simpson robbed the store that had the s/w and then killed the guy selling it. but, who knows. is Cochran still available?