J-J/Q-Q 100/200NL

[Vi-Zer0Skill]

I am essentially BE with these pairs over my last 16k hands. Variance doesn't completely explain why i am doing so poorly with these hands... These are the hands where i have been dealt J-J/Q-Q that i feel i didn't play optimally. Feel free to comment on one/all of them, or offer general suggestions for how to play these hands. As you will see, the RR pots are where i am having the most trouble.

Here is a useful addition to future analysis(my apologizies to andy_akb for not including this earlier): I run around 21/18 and i would say i 3bet slightly more frequently than the average 100/200NL regulars. I rarely don't c-bet a RR pot after i 3bet PF.

I have 4bet less than a dozen times in the last 16k hands.



Hand 1). Villain had seen me 3betting a lot, and over 100 or so hands he was 31/18/3.5. What do you make of a c/r min raise in a RR pot? Is this a spot where you give up without a specific read?

Hero: ($205 in chips)
Villain: ($349.30 in chips)
3 other players

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero: [Js Jd]
Villain: raises $6 to $8
Hero: raises $18 to $26
3 folds
Villain: calls $18
*** FLOP *** [4d 8s 6c]
Villain: checks
Hero: bets $38
Villain: raises $38 to $76


Hand 2). This hand took place today. Villain was 21/20/4 over 400 hands, though this was the first hand we ever really squared off against each other. Do you fold to a 4bet, even though this is BvB? By pushing i was essentially bluffing since his calling range (loosely Q-Q+/A-K) has me as a 2:1 underdog. But with $40 of dead money in the pot, what do you think is the probability villian will fold? That villain is going to 4bet air?

Villain: ($103 in chips)
Hero: ($220.90 in chips)
3 other players

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero: [Js Jc]
3 folds
Villain: raises $3 to $4
Hero: raises $10 to $14
Villain: raises $25 to $39
Hero: raises $181.90 to $220.90 and is all-in


Hand 3). What do you make of this donk bet? This is just a really poor shove by me, so i think a fold is probably the best play since stronger hands always call and draws are still getting great odds...

Villain: ($185.70 in chips)
Hero: ($98.50 in chips)
4 other players

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero: [Js Jh]
Player 1: raises $3 to $4
1 fold
Player 2: calls $4
1 fold
Villain: calls $3.50
Hero: raises $12 to $16
Players 1 and 2 fold
Villain: calls $12
*** FLOP *** [Qd 5h 9d]
Villain: bets $24
Hero: raises $58.50 to $82.50 and is all-in


Hand 4). Looking at this again, river value bet is too large. I should probably bet $13-15 to keep 9-x in the hand, though checking behind may be the best play also. Villain was pretty passive; 30/8/0.5 over 60 hands. This is probably a very small mistake but i am posting it anyways, since i may be wrong.

Villain: ($153.45 in chips)
Hero: ($101.50 in chips)
1 other player

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero: [Js Jd]
Hero: raises $2 to $3
1 fold
Villain: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [4c 6c 9c]
Villain: checks
Hero: bets $4
Villain: calls $4
*** TURN *** [4c 6c 9c] [Ts]
Villain: checks
Hero: bets $10
Villain: calls $10
*** RIVER *** [4c 6c 9c Ts] [2h]
Villain: checks
Hero: bets $29


Hand 5). Do i even need to c-bet this flop? Villain was 50/30/3.5 over 50 hands.

Villain: is at seat 0 with $165.90.
Hero: is at seat 1 with $146.60.
4 other players

Dealt to Hero: [Js Jc]
3 folds
Villain: raises to $3.50.
Hero: reraises to $13.50
1 fold
Villain: calls.

Flop (board: 9h Kh 4h):
Hero: bets $21.
Villain: raises to $91.
Hero: folds.


Hand 6). This opponent had just stacked another player off the hand before, so i wasn't sure if he was tilting or had a very strong hand. Calling the 4bet to me seems to be the worst option. I feel pushing/folding are both okay, though since i was new to the table i think folding would probably be best. New to the table so no notes/stats.

Villain: ($127.70 in chips)
Hero: ($101.50 in chips)
4 other players

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero: [Qc Qs]
1 fold
Villain: raises $3 to $4
3 folds
Hero: raises $10 to $14
Villain: raises $25 to $39
Hero: calls $25
*** FLOP *** [9c 8s Ks]
Hero: checks
Villain: bets $62.50, and is all-in
Hero: calls $62.50


Hand 7). 4betting Q-Q seems like a bad play in 100/200NL games, unless the opponents are fish who will call a 4bet with 10-8s, or are 35/30 LAG's who 3bet a very wide range. Since i was fairly new to this table i think coldcalling would be best, and raising a non Ace/King high flop or any other crappy flop (i.e. 8s-9s-10s). No useful notes/stats.

Hero: ($101.50)
Villain: ($127.35)
4 other players

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero: [Qh Qd]
1 fold
Player 1: raises $4 to $5
Player 2: calls $5
1 fold
Villain: raises $10 to $15
Hero: raises $17 to $32
Players 1 and 2 fold
Villain: calls $17
*** FLOP *** [Jc 5d 9s]
Villain: bets $10
Hero: raises $57.50 to $67.50 and is all-in


Hand 8). How do you interpret villain's small flop bet? I figured a c/r would be best, though i would c/r to $30 if i played this hand again. I figured since he 3bet me UTG that 4betting would be -EV. No useful notes/stats.

Hero: ($100.70 in chips)
Villain: ($123 in chips)
3 other players

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero: [Qc Qd]
Hero: raises $2 to $3
Villain: raises $7 to $10
3 folds
Hero: calls $7
*** FLOP *** [Tc 3d 8c]
Hero: checks
Villain: bets $5
Hero: raises $20 to $25

[andy-akb]

1) On a flop like this I would nearly always shove against an opponent like this; however, my image is probably a lot more aggro than yours. What do you run at? How light do you 3bet?

2) Is this 200nl or 100nl? If this is 100nl then I wouldnt hate a fold to the 4bet, but at 200nl [because of stacks] I would definitely shove.

3) Without any reads Im probably just going to take a not eof this and then watch other hands to see if I can pick up on what a donk bet in this spot means

4) I definitely pot this flop and turn and then, as you said, make a smaller VB on the river. Your line was fine, I just think you need to make larger bets on a board like this

5) I would definitely cbet this flop and expect a fold more than enough to make the play profitable.

6) Yea, if Im not folding to that 4bet [which is a shitty spot to be in readless] then I am going to shove. Since you just called the 4bet, you obviously cant fold postflop

7) Ehh, this depends a lot on your image. Cold calling a 3bet is soooo transparent of something like JJ or QQ. I honestly hate these spots, but 4betting is probably my standard action assuming villain is somewhat competent and aggressive. As played, you need to shove the flop.

8) I may lead here and shove over a raise. As played I think this is also a decent alternative, and I would probably fold to a shove, but Im not really sure about this at all.

Im basically just posting all of these to get some sort of responses to see how my logic is. So if anybody disagrees, please let me know.