I'm calling this topic "My quest to $10,000"

[housefish17]

So, I just deposited $50 into carbon poker today

I have lost about $1,500 total since I started playing back in February just learning the game. I am fascinated with it, I love the complexity of it and the math involved in it. Well today, I just came to a (i don't know the word so I'll leave it blank) in which I really want to get good at this game. I have noticed i have come to sort of a plateau in my game in which I just feel like I'm not progressing. When I put my mind to it, I can win at 25NL pretty conistently, but then I blow all that money in MTT's which I shouldn't be playing.

Anywho, I want to use this thread as a tracker to all the SnG's and MTT's I play, and then I guess I'll do a little session review when I play in ring games. So really this thread is here just for me. I am going to try using decent bankroll management to get to my quest of $10,000, i don't really care how long it takes so long as I don't have to deposit any more money. So wish me luck.

[bigred]

This belongs in the poker operations/blogs forum.

[Andy Holt]

I'm right there with ya. Keep us updated.

[housefish17]

Well, I just finished my first successful SnG of the day

$2.20 buy, 18 man SnG

I took 3/18 to pull in $7.20

I noticed my final table performance was really poor, making quick and bad decisions that caused a roller coaster ride for my chip count, going from chip leader, to low stack, back up to leader, to low stack, then busted on A3o against AKo

Also an earlier 1 table 10NL session was successful, winning a buy in

but of course, to go along with the good has to be the bad

I played in a couple micro MTT's and 10 man SnG's in which I didn't cash

So right now my BR is right at 60$

[Warpe]

I'm calling this topic "My quest to $10,000"

so call it that

[housefish17]

So i just got back from another successful session

1 tabled 10NL full ring and won almost 12$ and also FT'd a $5.50 176 man tourny and finished in 8th place after just an absolutley cold run of cards and bad luck. But, I cashed for 30$ on that

So, to end the day, i'm +$46.96 and br is at $96.96

[ChrisBCritter]

Glad you are being successful!

BUT, a $5.50 176 man tourney is not a good choice for your current bankroll...Stick with the $2.20's and I hope that you aren't buying in full to 10NL for 20% of your bankroll??

Anybody got a link to the Bankroll management thread?

[housefish17]

I do understand bankroll management, usually you wanna spend 5% to buy in at a table or less.

Well currently, 10NL is a very winnable game

The $5.50 was a little out of my range for spending, but I had been playing decent poker throughout the day and wanted to give it a shot and luckily it worked out for me

[2_Thumbs_Up]

i don't really care how long it takes so long as I don't have to deposit any more money.

Use better bankroll management or you will likely go broke.

[sejje]

I do understand bankroll management, usually you wanna spend 5% to buy in at a table or less.

No you don't. You always want to buy in for 5% or less.

Well currently, 10NL is a very winnable game

This has nothing to do with bankroll management.

The $5.50 was a little out of my range for spending, but I had been playing decent poker throughout the day and wanted to give it a shot and luckily it worked out for me

It was a lot out of range. I don't think you should even be playing $1 multis. But luckily, you're apparently a luckbox and you never lose.

[bigspenda73]

Why are you guys so mean to the beginners?

Seriously out of line all of you. I say do what you want and don't listen to any of the people who have been doing it much longer than you and know a lot more about it than you do. Pfft, you're playing great, what could possibly go wrong?

[jackvance]

$50 is plenty to beat 10NL..

[housefish17]

My issue with not being so disciplined with the BR at the low limits is the fact that they are easy to beat (I made another buy in today 3 tabling 10NL with a bank roll of $90+ in my latest session) and also if I do end up losing a buy in, that generally means I was tilting it away and I step away for a while.

It's not like I'm playing high stakes where indeed you can go broke a lot quicker, and there are also generally much better players.

Another point on my BR management. This $50 is my fun money so to speak.
So it's not a big issue for me if I lose it, I just would like not to.

I do however need to stop playing MTT's, they end up killing me, so I'ma hold off on them and play almost exclusively Ring games and SnG's

Current BR: $92.06, so down $4.90 from the other day

[bigspenda73]

Mods plz move this out of the Beginners section as it is a horrid read for anyone trying to properly build a bankroll and move up in stakes.

Maybe it should go in "tales of Poker" but here soon I'm sure we'll wanna put it in "it's all bad!"

[housefish17]

To regain control of this thread, let me write a disclaimer about what I'm doing. I am not intending to give strong advice on how to manage a BR (apparently there is some unwritten rule on the only way to manage a BR properly, I haven't found it yet, not in any of the books I have read by the actual experts of NL Hold'em poker, or any person that has said "in order to play poker you must follow strict guidelines as to how to manage a BR")

And from a post I just made in a different thread in response to a guy that actually understands what I'm doing and also understands that a BR doesn't just include the money you have posted on 1 site:

Your BR is the money you have set aside for poker, if i wanted to, I could be immediately be rolled for $200NL but, I decided a fun little trial with $50 and turning it into $10,000

For me, 10NL is perfectly acceptible. No question about it, if I lost that $50, so be it, I'll deposit another $50. My entire BR is not just limited to the $50 I deposited into this site. I just thought it would be neat turning $50 into $10,000. I am not trying to teach anyone the fundamentals of BR management.

The reason I play $10 ring games and micro buy in MTT's is because that is what I am comfortable with, I can play my game playing with "OMG 20% OF MY BR" as some of you "experts" have put it. I thought I would start a fun little thread (which has by the way turned into a disaster...thanks).

Stupid BR management would be going to play .5/1.0 100NL, with all the money i have deposited into carbonpoker.com. I don't feel comfortable playing those stakes, I am not good enough to play those stakes and win consistently, so therefore I am smart enough to not buy in for more than what I am rolled comfortably for. It's the people who maybe FT'd a decent size tourny they were underolled for (in an entire financial point of view) and took that winnings and immediately thought they could go play 1000NL or whatever and go broke and wonder why they went broke so fast.

Now, lets just say your not a big timer like most of the flopturnriver.com experts on here, and you just saved up you allowance for the last 2 years, and deposited all that money into an account, then I can understand the need for strict management of that money, and knowing exactly what your doing with it. Cause that could affect your life if you lose it all. However, in my case, i don't have that worry, I set aside an amount each pay period to play poker if I do infact lose the money I deposited the last time i deposited.

To end that, I had a really successful session again of 3 tabling 10NL, walked away with almost another buy-in, my BR (on this specific site) is up to $98.18

[jyms]

I know this thread got off topic and you would like to right the ship housefish. Problem one, Don't do a thread/blog/operation thread in the beginner forum. Go start a blog/operation in the poker Etcetera section, and we will watch, comment and help best we can. Problem number two. I understand where you are coming from as far as bankroll is concerned. Don't mistake these posts with the usual shit talking that can go on (myself included). Bankroll management is important and they were only trying to tell you how important. I think you did not explain yourself well enough as to the fact that you could deposit more if needed and did not limit yourself to $50 or make this your last $50. I think it was misunderstood by all that you were willing, if needed, to deposit again. So invariably, you have more in your roll than $50. A lot of people come on here with minimal cash and dreams of WSOP, so sometimes we need to hammer at them to understand why you need to follow a good BR strategy.

Now as for other people reading, posting,messaging and talking about bad beats, this is not a speech or a lecture, but BR management is not the be all, end all of climbing the ranks of poker. I see and hear tonnes, and by tonnes I mean hundreds, of rants about suckouts, dropping down, bad beats, 2 outers, misclicks, calling stations that can't fold and "fuckin' idiot!!! why you calling preflop with A4o in the SB??? Don't you know shit about poker" bitchfests to know this. This is exactly why you have BR management. How can any player on this site practice good BR management for these very reasons and then complain about them when they happen. I know very little about poker, but I feel I know something about this, and that is

YOU WILL NEVER BEAT POKER, if losing a hand, session or a buy in tilts you. You know why you practice good BR management, you have built in your safety net against the very things that are ruining your game, your enjoyment and your very reason for playing poker. There are people that will post (and tilt) about bad beats, all the while talking about these very reasons, of why you need BR management (getting tired of typing it). Stop preaching and start practicing.

Basically I'm saying this. Move on. Learn to beat the game. You know what Bankroll management is, but do you know why you have it, because it doesn't sound/ look like it. From now on every time someone complains, posts, IM's a bad beat or tilts from losing, I think the only response should be, Whats the roll???

[housefish17]

Maybe I don't understand why the general consensus of poker players is the 20 buyin minimum and the reason for having such a tight BR management. I am the type of person that needs to know why before implementing something into a strategy, and that is why I'm causing so much friction with bigspenda. I see he is a vet at this site, but instead of giving some sort of constructive criticism, he gives a very sarcastic smart ass response. There was no reasoning or basis behind it, he knew I was new, and yet, on a site intended for "oldtimers" to pass on knowledge to those seeking, he refuses to do that.

And yes, I did find that Blog forum after I decided to post this on the beginner forum, so if a Mod could either delete this or move it to the blog, that would be appreciated. Thanks

[jyms]

Spenda is cool, he likes to test. He is a very helpful person once you get past the initial sting. There are a few here that kind of check to see if your serious about learning. I think you need to stick around and see how things go. The problem with the Internet, as you may know, is tone, sarcasm and humour does not always translate. You will have lots of disagreements on this forum and about poker in general. It's opinion and some have beliefs that can't be adjusted so easily. PM him and get his AIM, talk to him and others, you'll hear it first hand and get alot more info than you think about poker, and them.

As for moving this thread. I'd start a new one make up your goals, post some hands and get the conversation started where you need it started. This thread is toast and off topic.

[bigspenda73]

Here are my thoughts housefish

1. If you have more than $50 to deposit plz do so
2. If all you want to deposit is $50 and you do not ever want to deposit again then you must must must play within your bankroll.
3. I agree, 10nl is unbelievably soft; however, it doesn't matter. You can/will/ go broke playing on such a short bankroll.
4. I am an asshole to noobies
5. I do know what I am talking about especially when it comes to building a roll. Just so you know, I withdrew a lot of money during the online crisis and have built a roll out of $120 starting at $5nl. I played 20k hands of $10nl (yuck) to get from $250 to $750 to move to $25nl. I then put in the same amount of hands to get my roll to ~$1600. If I would actually play more poker and not spend time on FTR all day I would probably be at 200nl by now. I haven't even averaged 10k hands a month in '07 when I should be doing that weekly.
6. I stand by my earlier comments in this thread. This operation is a bad read to beginners who are practicing what we preach here at FTR. We first and foremost practice solid BR management to minimize variance, help deal with inevitable tilt, and to increase comfort levels. I make a good amount of plays at pots (I have 32 buyins for my level currently) and I just cannot see myself making those same moves if I had about 6 buyins. I would play scared, lose all of my fold equity, and subsequently decrease my potential earnings.

clif notes: I'm a meanie, you're underrolled, I too knows what it feels like to grind up a roll.

[Jack Sawyer]

Mods plz move this out of the Beginners section as it is a horrid read for anyone trying to properly build a bankroll and move up in stakes.

Maybe it should go in "tales of Poker" but here soon I'm sure we'll wanna put it in "it's all bad!"

Lol! Very true!
Message to n00bies: DON'T EVER APPROACH BR MGMT LACKADAISICALLY/ LAZILY/ NONCHALANTLY/ FOOLISHLY!!! EVER!!! EVEEEERRR!!!!!

[Jack Sawyer]

Conservative style: Stay between 30 and 60 buyins of whatever you do.
More unorthodox: min 20 buyins.

Think about it this way: if you lose 7 straight games while at 55 buyins, you'll still have 47/55 of your roll left. And you will lose 7 straight at one point.
If you lose 7 straight while your roll is 20 buyins, you'll have 13/20 left.
47/55 > 13/20 = you'll play more comfortably having more of a roll backing you. This is seriously the only way to play if you want to make $10,000.

Okay, so your goal is just that: get to $10,000. Hey, my goal is to buy a house in Monaco for 8,000,000 euro's, but anyway.
If you put $50 of your "can lose money" to try and get there, and lose it, your roll will actually be -$50. Are you with me still?
Now, you could afford to lose some money like that, trying to learn the game. That's fine. So you deposit another $50 of your "can lose money". You manage to triple it up then move up in stakes. You get bombed there, and lose it again. So now, your bankroll instead of being $200, is actually -$100.

Rinse and repeat and you'll see where I'm going.

Nothing is as important in poker as BR MGMT. Okay, maybe laying second best hands down, but nothing else is as important in poker as BR MGMT. Nothing.

[SHAKE]

BR managment doesnt have to go along with what you have deposted at said site. I play 50 NL and upt o 2-4 6 max limit, and i have no more then 200 on anysite. However i have over 1K in epassoprt that i could reload any site within minutes. I can handle a 200$ swing because although i mayonly have 200 on a particular site. 200 is NOT my BR. Its a piece of it that i happen to have on a few certain sites. If 200 was all i had to soen, paying 1-2 even would be stupid.

On a brighter note, i cashed out 200 from cake left my self with 150 on there, sat a a 2-4 game with a VPIP of 67% (whooho) and trippled my money in less then 3 hours. SO yeah, do what you gota do lol. (not good advice) and i did catch alot of hands and the oppositon where the new modles of the payoff bot 2007! They have a unique style with most lines looking like c/c/c/c or my fav c/c/c/f/

[salsa4ever]

Mods plz move this out of the Beginners section as it is a horrid read for anyone trying to properly build a bankroll and move up in stakes.

Maybe it should go in "tales of Poker" but here soon I'm sure we'll wanna put it in "it's all bad!"

I don't agree.

Cliff Notes:
1. don't worry about BR before you get to $10NL if you can beat the game (and if you can't just give up poker NOW)

2. experienced players should seriously consider withdrawing all or part of their money, especially if held in US dollar denominations, and especially where you have no problem re-depositing. The US dollar is depreciating like hell, and you also earn no return on your money

3. don't get fixated on your "roll". Most players, and especially at low limits should not think of the money they've deposited as a "bankroll", but more as a "stake". The concept of bankroll applies, IMO, only to professional and semi-professional players. And if one *is* a professional, I recommend being conservative: >50 buy ins.

I also happened to play $0.25/$0.50 limit on a $50 deposit. Because that was the lowest stakes at which I could clear bonuses. Fortunately, I ran decently for the first part of my career. So I'm certainly not going to sit in a glass house throwing stones.

Seriously, there is no bankroll management at these stakes. What is the point of having a "bankroll" of $50 and then trying to stay at 20 buyins, so you play $2 no limit until you get to $100 and then you play 5 NL till you get to $200? Bullshit. I say if you're reasonably confident you can beat the game at 10 NL, then DO IT! If variance kicks you in the ass and you lose your $50, you can always re-deposit.

Now don't get me wrong, Bankroll Management is really important, and I'm not suggesting it ought to be ignored just because the stakes are low. What I'm saying is that one should get over the conceptual hump of "my bankroll is $50". Think of yourself as committing $300 to poker, but you've just decided to deposit $50 for now, to save on transactions costs if you should go on a heater and never look back. I do think once you get to 10NL and are thinking about moving up, bankroll management becomes important.

I don't think anyone should limit themselves to $5 NL because they don't "have a roll". That's just silly. 2 exceptions: if it's really THAT difficult for you to deposit because you live in the US, or if you really don't have the $300 (i.e. $50 really IS all you can afford). Anyone who withdraws a lot of money and then tries to restart at $5NL thinking their remaining $120 is all that's left of their roll, KNOWING THEY CAN BEAT 25NL or 50NL SOLIDLY (and this is important), is IMHO wasting their time.

I play 400PL and I only have $5,000 across the poker sites because I keep cashing out. The fact it's not online doesn't mean it's not part of my "roll". If I hit a bad run, I'll be able to just deposit another $5,000. But why have $100,000 sitting in neteller earning zero interest AND worse still deflate in value because it's in USD? I'm glad I made all those cashouts when $10,000 USD = $13,500 AUD because now I can only get $11,500 for my $10,000. Add all the interest I earn and it's like a 25% difference!

I really do think bankroll management is overrated, unless one is proposing to be a professional or at least semi-pro. Even Greenstein in his Ace on the River, does not advocate a strict BRM regime.

P.S. can someone move this shit to blogs

[jyms]

I wouldn't move it, I'd change the title and leave it. I told him to start another blog thread anyway. I think leaving this here for beginners is a good thing.

[bigspenda73]

poker is fun
for every one

[|~|ypermegachi]

bankroll = total pool of resources of which you can draw money from

if you can redeposit if your bust, the source of which you're depositing from is PART OF YOUR BANKROLL.

i'll also add that when i first started playing poker, i took $10 free that a prima skin give me, and i played on the $5NL tables. that's right. my "bankroll" was 2 buyins. i ran good, and got it up to $120. and then ran bad (and probably played bad), and lost it all. i went on a 24 buyin downswing.

[SHAKE]

24 buy in down swing.....i think thats called being out played

[dsmrolla06]

24 buy in down swing.....i think thats called being out played

Not in all circumstances. Im on over a 20 buyin downswing currently at the $24 and $36 sngs and i highly doubt im being outplayed.

[jackvance]

bankroll = total pool of resources of which you can draw money from

if you can redeposit if your bust, the source of which you're depositing from is PART OF YOUR BANKROLL.

That's probably part of the confusion. $50 is fine for 10NL, mainly because it's such a low amount that you can easily reload for another $50 or whatever should you *gasp* go broke. I mean, even a degenrate can scrape together $50. BR management escalates the higher you go. If you go play 1000NL and a 10 buyin downswing wipes out you bankroll, that is a tougher nut to replace.

In his case the 20 buyin is probably a good rule for moving up.. anywhere between $300 and $400 to move to 20NL I'd say.

All I ever deposited in my life is $50, and I barely knew the rules back then.. been playing poker off of that deposit for over 2 years now, spread over several sites (almost no poker past half year but still).

[housefish17]

Also the criteria for me moving up is going to be 20 buyins to the next level. I went ahead and cashed out of carbonpoker.com (well, left like 10$ of fun money, their micro tourneys are easily FTable) and put it into Pokerstars

So I put $95 into Pokerstars, and started 4 tabling 5NL with pretty good success till at the end of the day when I had 2 AA's cracked (by K4s and Q8s respectively) and an AK whooped up on, so I finished the day playing 500+ hands and down $1.20 which I guess isn't too bad. So my BR is at $91.43 (i missed cashing in a couple $1.10 MTT's. I'ma restart this thread on the blog/operations forum today after work.

The reason I moved the money to PS was the fact that I can use Poker tracker, PS has better tournies, and also has a lot more games going on at one time.

[bjsaust]

All this talk of BR management, and noones mentioned the fact that poster is down $1500 already and talking about how easy the games are to beat. I'd recommend solid BR management, just for the practice, so that when you do move up you have the discipline in place.

I'm doing a similar thing, I deposit $50 pm. At the start of the month, what I have is my roll. Not 'its ok if I lose because I have more next month'. That said if you have the cash, I think its a good idea to put in enough to play the games you want.

You mention in the OP that you lost a lot of your money playing MTTs you shouldnt have been playing, but you just said you're still playing MTTs (and losing money). Dont you think its time to make a decision there?