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[aokrongly]

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[aokrongly]

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[givememyleg]

You open limp/limp a lot in general - why is this?

Also "336 players left, we're ITM and can get aggressive now." Wouldn't it make more sense to be agro on/near the bubble rather than trying to make it itm? Generally people EXPLODE once you're itm so I think that's the wrong time to become aggressive.

[meeloche]

Great post, I would like to pick your brain a bit if I could. A few hands I would like to hear your thinking on.

PS. Great laydown on the AK and the top pair flush draw by the way i'm pretty sure i would have pushed the top pair flush draw hand.

PokerStars Game #9674020676: Tournament #48311898, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2007/04/29 - 21:56:10 (ET)
Table '48311898 135' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: DUSTYBOTTOM1 (10525 in chips)
Seat 2: shaky107 (4370 in chips)
Seat 3: Mr.SlowPlay (2165 in chips)
Seat 5: DocSlapnut (4255 in chips)
Seat 6: jafeythenut (3130 in chips)
Seat 7: aok_kia (5365 in chips)
Seat 8: rache3 (5125 in chips)
Seat 9: PBull (1635 in chips)
DUSTYBOTTOM1: posts small blind 50
shaky107: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aok_kia [Ad Jh]
rinax is connected
Mr.SlowPlay: calls 100
DocSlapnut: folds
jafeythenut: folds
aok_kia: calls 100
rache3: raises 200 to 300
PBull: folds
DUSTYBOTTOM1: folds
shaky107: calls 200
Mr.SlowPlay: calls 200
aok_kia: folds
*** FLOP *** [Th 6s 7c]
shaky107: checks
Mr.SlowPlay: checks
rache3: bets 600
shaky107: folds
Mr.SlowPlay: folds
rache3 collected 1050 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1050 | Rake 0
Board [Th 6s 7c]
Seat 1: DUSTYBOTTOM1 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: shaky107 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Mr.SlowPlay folded on the Flop
Seat 5: DocSlapnut folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: jafeythenut folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: aok_kia folded before Flop
Seat 8: rache3 collected (1050)
Seat 9: PBull (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

PokerStars Game #9674035436: Tournament #48311898, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2007/04/29 - 21:57:07 (ET)
Table '48311898 135' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: DUSTYBOTTOM1 (10475 in chips)
Seat 2: shaky107 (4070 in chips)
Seat 3: Mr.SlowPlay (1865 in chips)
Seat 4: rinax (3980 in chips)
Seat 5: DocSlapnut (4255 in chips)
Seat 6: jafeythenut (3130 in chips)
Seat 7: aok_kia (5265 in chips)
Seat 8: rache3 (5875 in chips)
Seat 9: PBull (1635 in chips)
shaky107: posts small blind 50
Mr.SlowPlay: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aok_kia [Jh Kh]
rinax: folds
DocSlapnut: folds
jafeythenut: folds
aok_kia: calls 100
rache3: folds
PBull: folds
DUSTYBOTTOM1: folds
shaky107: raises 200 to 300
Mr.SlowPlay: folds
aok_kia: calls 200
*** FLOP *** [5h 2h Ks]
shaky107: bets 300
aok_kia: calls 300
*** TURN *** [5h 2h Ks] [Ad]
shaky107: checks
aok_kia: bets 400
shaky107: folds
aok_kia collected 1300 from pot
aok_kia: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1300 | Rake 0
Board [5h 2h Ks Ad]
Seat 1: DUSTYBOTTOM1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: shaky107 (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 3: Mr.SlowPlay (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: rinax folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: DocSlapnut folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: jafeythenut folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: aok_kia collected (1300)
Seat 8: rache3 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: PBull folded before Flop (didn't bet)

You're open limping AJ and KJ which is fine but in hand one after it's raised your last to act and you only have to put in 200 to see a 1100 pot, those seem like good enough odds to me, am I missing something? Hand 2 you called after limping. Is it cause you only want to play those hands heads up?

PokerStars Game #9674278423: Tournament #48311898, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2007/04/29 - 22:12:44 (ET)
Table '48311898 135' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: DUSTYBOTTOM1 (11075 in chips)
Seat 2: shaky107 (2745 in chips)
Seat 3: Mr.SlowPlay (2755 in chips)
Seat 4: rinax (4855 in chips)
Seat 5: DocSlapnut (2690 in chips)
Seat 6: jafeythenut (3855 in chips)
Seat 7: aok_kia (5665 in chips)
Seat 8: rache3 (5500 in chips)
Seat 9: PBull (1410 in chips)
DocSlapnut: posts small blind 75
jafeythenut: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aok_kia [Ac Tc]
aok_kia: calls 150
rache3: folds
PBull: folds
DUSTYBOTTOM1: calls 150
shaky107: folds
Mr.SlowPlay: folds
rinax: folds
DocSlapnut: folds
jafeythenut: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ad 7h 4s]
jafeythenut: checks
aok_kia: checks
DUSTYBOTTOM1: checks
*** TURN *** [Ad 7h 4s] [9c]
jafeythenut: bets 300
aok_kia: calls 300
DUSTYBOTTOM1: folds
*** RIVER *** [Ad 7h 4s 9c] [3h]
jafeythenut: checks
aok_kia: bets 600
jafeythenut: calls 600
*** SHOW DOWN ***
aok_kia: shows [Ac Tc] (a pair of Aces)
jafeythenut: mucks hand
aok_kia collected 2325 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2325 | Rake 0
Board [Ad 7h 4s 9c 3h]
Seat 1: DUSTYBOTTOM1 folded on the Turn
Seat 2: shaky107 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Mr.SlowPlay folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: rinax (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: DocSlapnut (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: jafeythenut (big blind) mucked [8c 9d]
Seat 7: aok_kia showed [Ac Tc] and won (2325) with a pair of Aces
Seat 8: rache3 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: PBull folded before Flop (didn't bet)

If you're open limping A10 utg are you calling a raise behind you and if yes at what price? Why the passive line with the ace any other reason than thats how you've been playing all tournament?

PokerStars Game #9675220252: Tournament #48311898, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2007/04/29 - 23:12:42 (ET)
Table '48311898 138' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Alaskadude (6112 in chips)
Seat 2: aok_kia (5530 in chips)
Seat 3: 0lde English (8539 in chips)
Seat 4: danthecabman (3400 in chips)
Seat 5: ScatMan55 (3995 in chips)
Seat 6: addietudes (12535 in chips)
Seat 7: ShadyAK (3548 in chips)
Seat 8: benny7 (1845 in chips)
Seat 9: MikeBBBell (14877 in chips)
Alaskadude: posts the ante 50
aok_kia: posts the ante 50
0lde English: posts the ante 50
danthecabman: posts the ante 50
ScatMan55: posts the ante 50
addietudes: posts the ante 50
ShadyAK: posts the ante 50
benny7: posts the ante 50
MikeBBBell: posts the ante 50
ShadyAK: posts small blind 300
benny7: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aok_kia [Td 9h]
MikeBBBell: folds
Alaskadude: folds
aok_kia: raises 1800 to 2400
0lde English: calls 2400
danthecabman: folds
ScatMan55: folds
addietudes: folds
ShadyAK: folds
benny7: folds
*** FLOP *** [4h 2h Jd]
aok_kia: bets 3080 and is all-in
0lde English: calls 3080
*** TURN *** [4h 2h Jd] [8s]
*** RIVER *** [4h 2h Jd 8s] [7d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
aok_kia: shows [Td 9h] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
0lde English: shows [As Jh] (a pair of Jacks)
0lde English said, "bs"
aok_kia collected 12310 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 12310 | Rake 0
Board [4h 2h Jd 8s 7d]
Seat 1: Alaskadude folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: aok_kia showed [Td 9h] and won (12310) with a straight, Seven to Jack
Seat 3: 0lde English showed [As Jh] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 4: danthecabman folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ScatMan55 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: addietudes (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: ShadyAK (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: benny7 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: MikeBBBell folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Why not push your M is around 4. Stop and go?

[aokrongly]

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[aokrongly]

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[aokrongly]

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[martypalin]

excellent read, I feel you could have made top 50 easily sticking to your plan but I'm also sure I don't need to remind you of that!!

[givememyleg]

Yeah, I gotcha. A lot of people deposit online and get the fancy play syndrome from watching some crazy bluffs on tv. You do need to make a stand at some point, however it's a nice post showing how you don't need to do anything "fancy" to make it itm. Also, at times just playing like this, if you get the cards and it's your day, you can cruise right to the ft. Good post.

[aokrongly]

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[PhilPaine]

A great post and read. I generally play with a similar approach (although not nearly as well), so it was great to see a running commentary on this style of play. I'm sure this will help me immensely.

PokerStars Game #9675294064: Tournament #48311898, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2007/04/29 - 23:17:33 (ET)
Table '48311898 138' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Alaskadude (4912 in chips)
Seat 2: aok_kia (13305 in chips)
Seat 3: 0lde English (1259 in chips)
Seat 4: danthecabman (2500 in chips)
Seat 5: ScatMan55 (5045 in chips)
Seat 6: addietudes (12235 in chips)
Seat 7: ShadyAK (4248 in chips)
Seat 8: Catspajamas (30906 in chips)
Seat 9: MikeBBBell (13677 in chips)
Alaskadude: posts the ante 50
aok_kia: posts the ante 50
0lde English: posts the ante 50
danthecabman: posts the ante 50
ScatMan55: posts the ante 50
addietudes: posts the ante 50
ShadyAK: posts the ante 50
Catspajamas: posts the ante 50
MikeBBBell: posts the ante 50
danthecabman: posts small blind 300
ScatMan55: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aok_kia [Kh 9c]
addietudes: calls 600
ShadyAK: folds
Catspajamas: calls 600
MikeBBBell: folds
Alaskadude: folds
aok_kia: calls 600
0lde English: folds
danthecabman: folds
ScatMan55: checks
*** FLOP *** [8h 6s 7s]
ScatMan55: checks
addietudes: checks
Catspajamas: bets 600
aok_kia: calls 600
ScatMan55: calls 600
addietudes: calls 600
*** TURN *** [8h 6s 7s] [6d]
ScatMan55: checks
addietudes: checks
Catspajamas: bets 600
aok_kia: calls 600
ScatMan55: calls 600
addietudes: folds
*** RIVER *** [8h 6s 7s 6d] [6h]
ScatMan55: checks
Catspajamas: checks
aok_kia: bets 4200
ScatMan55: folds
Catspajamas: folds
aok_kia collected 7350 from pot
aok_kia: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7350 | Rake 0
Board [8h 6s 7s 6d 6h]
Seat 1: Alaskadude folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: aok_kia collected (7350)
Seat 3: 0lde English (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: danthecabman (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: ScatMan55 (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 6: addietudes folded on the Turn
Seat 7: ShadyAK folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Catspajamas folded on the River
Seat 9: MikeBBBell folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Could you explain the reasoning behind this call? Isn't it throwing chips away when there is no reason to get involved?

[aokrongly]

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[Zee Devee]

In particular the push way too often unnecessarily with coin flips. AK vs 99, as an example (regardless of whether they have one side of this equation or the other). Assuming a coin flip is a 50/50 proposition (which it isn't - in this instance 99 has the advantage) then going all in UNNECESSARILY (that is to say without a compelling chip reason to do so) TWICE means you win one and you lose one - so you're out of the tournament.

I have a problem with this. The above is true that you don't need to take unnecessary coinflips, but lets take into account the guy who has AK- How do you know opp is pushing with an underpair? And if you know villain will push with 99, why wouldn't he push with AQ or AJ. The fact that you might be dominating them in addition with the 50/50 makes this +EV in my mind.

The point is the fact that you can never be sure it will be a coinflip may give you more reason to call, given a decent opp range.

[aokrongly]

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[salsa4ever]

This is probably the biggest point of contention that I get. It's fair to say that you could argue it either way. I'll argue it my way.

Let's say it's 60% in your favor every time, and every time you push or call a push you will be all in (or so close to all in that it will cripple any chances you have at completing the tournament) And let's add that you have 20x or more the preflop pot (antes and blinds). And you make this choice 3 times with AK. Who wins? At 60% in your favor, you lose in 3 attempts. At 70% you still lose in 3 attempts.

AK is a Great Hand. It's a great raising hand. It's a great hand after the flop. You can easily push people off pots after the flop even if you miss, AND even if they hit an underpair you still have outs. I love AK. Short of AA or KK, it's my Fave.

If, however, every 30 minutes the MTT you were playing stopped and someone said, "You and You! We're going to flip a coin to see who has to leave the table." You wouldn't be a fan.

Somehow we have gotten into our own heads and pounded into every new player's head that AK vs an underpair is a "coinflip" and you should be willing to play AK for all your chips almost regardless of the situation. What I'm saying is that mentality is poor logic. QT may be beaten preflop by AK, it's not that much of a favorite. Against a pocket pair AK is an underdog. Against AA and KK it's pretty crushed.

There are plenty of reasons to play AK for all your chips and plenty of situations to do so. But it's not a made hand. When you raise with it preflop and someone pushes back into you, you have to at least think before calling off all your chips.

My point is that there's no way to know what the villain has. But you know what you have, and people should understand that when your tournament is at stake it should at least be a Decision. And, if it's your habit to put your tournament life at risk repeated with AK - ESPECIALLY when you Actually Put the villan on an underpair - you may be taking totally unnecessary risks based on faulty logic.

Now, if you have AK and 30,000 and the villain has 88 and 10,000 chips - even if you know he has 88 and that you are Behind (because you are). You're getting proper odds AND making proper tournament decisions. If you have 10,000 chips and the villain has 30,000 (and the preflop pot is 2,000 chips), then it's also the right move to make a stand here with AK. But, if the preflop pot is 2000 and you each have 35,000 and you decide to go toe to toe in a raise, reraise push pot with AK, then you're "gambling". Poker involves risk, but you're gambling at that point unnecessarily simply because you have AK. I don't think any decision should be automatic - especially one where you Know you're taking the short odds for your entire stack.

I agree that you are never sure. But the next time you are 90% sure and you make the call for all your chips unnecessarily understand that you're not flipping a coin.

I could be wrong... But that's my take. Most people would think so. That's why there are different players with different styles.

Doesn't it just boil down to What Harrington says?

1. Look at the odds (dead money)
2. Give them a range
3. What's your equity (including fold equity) against the range
4. Is a call (push) warranted?

I wholeheartedly agree that it should always be a DECISION, not a reflex "I HAVE AK, THEREFORE ALL IN PREFLOP". But weighing up the factors, I find that 95 times out of 100, all in preflop is either optimal or +cEV anyway. I'm not thinking about ICM until I'm at the final table

[bjsaust]

Thank you very much for this.

I just played my first MTT and came around 57 out of 1900. This technique really did the trick. Being able to look at the tourney lobby and realise just how quickly people are kicking themselves out, while all I'm doing is basically sitting and letting them, with a couple of jumps in when I'm in the box seat was so easy. Any time I felt I was going too slow or something, I'd just check how many more people have dropped out while I'm still sitting around average stack size.

Even once I got ITM (top 270), I didnt have to do much more. Stole a couple blinds (got lucky on one where I got called on it and flopped a lucky pair) when it looked good or I needed to up my stack, and played some decent hands a bit more aggressively, but again getting about 4x buyin mainly consisted of letting other people knock themselves out more than any great play on my behalf.

Eventually dumped out on a KK pre-flop push where I got called by AJ and both got paired on the flop.

[bigslikk]

Tight play works b/c the rest of the donks have bluff syndrome / think top pair is the holy nuts.

[aokrongly]

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[aokrongly]

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[JanusVV]

This post inspired me a great deal! Thanks alot!

Yesterday i bought in at the 10k guaranteed on everest poker and basicly just stuck to this approach. I saw like 10 flops total during the entire tournament but managed to finish 43rd out of 993 players.

While it was kinda boring i played settlers 4 on my other pc at the same time. That helped me alot keeping myself patient (Still working on that). And im pretty sure it helped alot because after i had completed my settlers game i started getting bored and playing speculative hands resulting in my stack taking a 40% hit. Next time i hope to keep my head straight and just stick to the plan, and im pretty confident i'll be able to move up further in the payout tree.

But indeed even as a shortstack playing in these tournaments is all about patience. On the bubble i was number 79 in chips compared to the 91 remaining. WIthout playing a hand i went down to 56 of 80 in one orbit, and finished 43rd two orbits later. Much better than the usual 80+th that i usually would have gotten!

So thanks alot aokrongly!