4 betting preflop

[Vi-Zer0Skill]

I was thinking after i responded to somebody's post about how profitable a wide 4 bet preflop range could be. You could be bluffing 1/2 the time you 4 bet, and opponents would likely rountinely lay down A-K, Q-Q hands. Not to mention hands that people frequently 3 bet, like A-Q, 10-10, J-J.

Even if they thought it was likely you were bluffing, as long as you didn't get caught doing it you could probably get away with it for a long time, since a 4bet basically tells your opponents i want to play for stacks. What a clever lie, i thought, so i posted it to get some other opinions and criticisms. Also hopefully an optimal 4 betting range against a generally LAGG table.

So my questions are:

1). Is my assumption that a wide 4bet range is indeed profitable?

2). What hands are optimal for 4 betting?
- Are SC's still good for this?

3). Can we get away with a small 4 bet?
- 1.5 x the 3 bet would eliminate profitable implied odds for set hunting, correct? (Assuming the 2nd and 3rd bets were 3x)

[2_Thumbs_Up]

Good thread.

I know I should 4-bet sometimes but I almost never do. This could probably be very profitable from the button when someone repops your steal attempt. I think someone has to 3bet a few times before you do it though.

1. I think so. Just don't over-do it.

2 I'm unsure of this one. I'll leave it to someone else.

3. Probably. 200NL I raise to 8$, someone makes it 24$. 60$ or something seems reasonable to me. Has to work around 60% or something. That's probably possible.

Also, should we c-bet if we get called?

[chipper5711]

Use it rarely, and keep an eye on your opponents stack size, you may very well commit them to their entire stack before the 4th bet and the bluff may not be effective at that point if they are already pot committed. But if you're up for a horse race anyway then proceed.

[Vi-Zer0Skill]

In response to your question 2_Thumbs_Up, i would say that yes a c-bet seems necessary

Unfortunately, any c-bet does commit us to the pot. If someone does call the raise maybe it would be best to surrender the hand; cut our losses in essence. Except of course when we flop 2-pair or some other strong hand (doesn't happen very often though).

But yeah i also agree with what you said about doing this particularily when you are going to be IP, ideally on the button.

[pgil]

do you ever 4bet AA pf? what about KK or QQ. The problem is, 4bets seem to be so infrequent that even a slightly lighter 4bet range will be ringing alarm bells and will lead to you getting looked up more often than you would like. this may only hold true up to certain stakes.

if you are 4betting AA frequently then maybe having a wider range could lead to AA getting paid more/more often than you would otherwise.

[Vi-Zer0Skill]

When playing against smart opponents, i agree that it is necessary to include A-A in your PF 4 betting in order for it to get any respect.

Does anyone have any suggestions for post-flop play if our 4bet gets called?

A specific scenario:
1). You are in position and villain checks to you.
-a). size of bet (if any)

I wouldn't 4bet without A-A OOP.