players checkraising and slowplaying

[pokerroomace]

I recently joined FullTilt and have been playing there for a few days.

One thing I've noticed is that tonnes of check-raising goes on and slowplaying. an over the top amount.

i continuation bet a lot of flops where i'm the preflop aggressor and i am checkraised a lot and with all sorts of hands. sometimes top pair. sometimes A hi when they think i'm bluffing. sometimes 2 pair or better. sometimes even complete bluffs.
sometimes i get minbet checkraised.
in sngs when the blinds are getting big and the pots are also big compared to the stacks - it's usually a checkraise allin

what do you think about this kind of play?

i hate this way of playing. checkraising is ok to do some of the time but the players at fulltilt just over do it IMO.
i'm not saying i don't want to play against this style of play. i'm saying i wouldn't play that way myself.

what is the best way to play against this style?

[norny21]

i would play tight aggresive if i didnt hit against a known check raiser i would just check and see a free card if i did hit and am sure i have him beat i would reraise him 3-5x his bet. (im probably wrong though)

[sejje]

The best way is to determine whether they have a hand you can beat or not. Of course, that's not always easy.

You could c-bet less when you miss, that would be the easiest adjustment.

Basically I think if you can't play when you get check-raised, you better stop betting air.

So many things go into this, though; the style of the player, the amount they checkraise (probably 80% minraise), etc. This is something that I have trouble with even after my length of play. I'm not even sure how long I've been playing, 2-3 years and a few million hands I think.

[melinda27]

how are you reacting to the check raise? are you 3 betting with air on occasion? I would c-bet less with pure air 3 bet my strong hands TPTK or better and also 3 bet semi-bluff alot. I like to see how they handle the turn after a 3 bet flop back at them and also what they're showing down in that situation before i determine how i'm going to handle them.

[TerryToma]

You could c-bet less when you miss, that would be the easiest adjustment.

Basically I think if you can't play when you get check-raised, you better stop betting air.

[swiggidy]

in sngs when the blinds are getting big and the pots are also big compared to the stacks - it's usually a checkraise allin

So, are you talking about 30BB stacks in a SnG or 100BB+ stacks in ring?

Big difference

[pokerroomace]

in sngs when the blinds are getting big and the pots are also big compared to the stacks - it's usually a checkraise allin

So, are you talking about 30BB stacks in a SnG or 100BB+ stacks in ring?

Big difference

ye. gd point

i'm talking mainly about SnG play. 10-30BB stacks. the problem is a lot of the time i can't find out where i'm at. i bet and they move allin. and i really don't know where i'm at.

is my TPWK good? is my TPTK gd? is it worth risking my entire stack with an average hand when an aggressive player check raises me? is it worth calling off my entire stack when i've been c-betting a lot and they've had enough of me? or do they have a legit hand?
it's annoying

with air i'll obviously fold, but when i have a decent hand i'm stuck.
any advice?

[XTR1000]

nice to see there´s someone having the same problems like me at FullTilt

i opened ftr today intending to write a similar thread. i put my money into fulltilt on monday, right now i´m down 3 1/2 buy-ins. i have huge problems adjusting my game to ftp.

at cash games its a similar situationthere might be a bit variance included, as i lost 2 buy ins against runner runner draws, but i feel like i cant make my (former) a game there) cbets are getting called more often, 3bets won´t get that much respect as elsewhere and overall ppl are far more likely to call than to bet.

[Fnord]

i'm talking mainly about SnG play. 10-30BB stacks.

is my TPWK good? is my TPTK gd?

If it's a raised pot, I'm never folding top pair this deep.

[pokerroomace]

i'm talking mainly about SnG play. 10-30BB stacks.

is my TPWK good? is my TPTK gd?

If it's a raised pot, I'm never folding top pair this deep.

even if everybody has stacks that are 30BB deep and it's still quite near the start of the sng?
does your advice apply to highstakes games or to lowstakes or to both?

[swiggidy]

If it's a raised pot, I'm never folding top pair this shallow.

You have 30xBB.

Pre-flop raise, 1 caller. Pot: 7.5BB, stack 27BB

Flop, bet 2/3 pot (5BB). Pot: 12.5BB, stack 22BB

get raised 15BB. Pot: 27.5BB

Now it's effectivley costing you 22BB to win 39.5BB (27.5 + 12, assume villain calls). You only have to be good here 35% of the time for this to be +eV. As stacks get smaller so does the % chance you have to be good.

ICM in a SnG will change this %

[pokerroomace]

If it's a raised pot, I'm never folding top pair this shallow.

You have 30xBB.

Pre-flop raise, 1 caller. Pot: 7.5BB, stack 27BB

Flop, bet 2/3 pot (5BB). Pot: 12.5BB, stack 22BB

get raised 15BB. Pot: 27.5BB

Now it's effectivley costing you 22BB to win 39.5BB (27.5 + 12, assume villain calls). You only have to be good here 35% of the time for this to be +eV. As stacks get smaller so does the % chance you have to be good.

ICM in a SnG will change this %

ok. so let's say you are getting 2 to 1. that isn't really good enough. is it?
if a maniac player pushes you allin you should call. but if a tight player raises you allin, how can you call?
what kind of hand do you have? are we talking about AQ when the flop comes QT5 rainbow? if we're talking about AQ I agree, but...

what if we have QJ on a QT5 rainbow flop? and our opponent raises allin? do you still think you'll win 33% of the time? is he really going to put his entire sng at stake on a bluff?
i think 7 or 8 out of 10 players would not risk their sng like this on a bluff when they still have 20 BB left to play with.
i think 6+ out of 10 players wouldn't even make this play with Tx, 5x or J9 in their hand.

[vegascoop]

pokerroomace - what's your image at the table? At Full Tilt, I've had to adjust to the aggressiveness of the games. It's important to establish you won't get pushed around by the aggros.

I dropped several buy-ins when I moved over to FTP. I initially thought just variance but kidding myself. I've got it going in the right direction again by playing much more aggressively. Any passivity or weakness in your game gets magnified compared to similar sites at my current stakes.

[swiggidy]

I don't have a good answer for this, besides this is why SnGs suck. If he check/raises a lot then obviously it's a call, if it's the first time, ???

In a ring game no way I'm folding TP to a 30BB shorty.

[swiggidy]

This hand made me think about this thread.

Villain had just sat down (hence posting) I thought for about 1.5 sec before calling the turn. This is 60BB stacks.

In retrospect, I usually bet $2.50 pre-flop in this situation, and bet $5-6 on flop, but whatever. Turn bet was intentionally 1/3 of his stack.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($50.20)
Hero ($46.45)
MP ($23.25)
CO ($30)
Button ($164.90)
SB ($52.15)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, A. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero raises to $3, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls $2.50, 3 folds.

Flop: ($6.75) 3, K, 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $4, CO calls $4.

Turn: ($14.75) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $8, CO raises to $23, Hero calls $15.

River: ($60.75) 8 (2 players)

Final Pot: $60.75

Results in white below:
Hero has Kc Ad (one pair, kings).
CO has As Qc (high card, ace).
Outcome: Hero wins $60.75.

[pokerroomace]

pokerroomace - what's your image at the table? At Full Tilt, I've had to adjust to the aggressiveness of the games. It's important to establish you won't get pushed around by the aggros.

I dropped several buy-ins when I moved over to FTP. I initially thought just variance but kidding myself. I've got it going in the right direction again by playing much more aggressively. Any passivity or weakness in your game gets magnified compared to similar sites at my current stakes.

my image changes a lot. sometimes i play 1 in 40 hands and then sometimes i play 20 out of 40 hands.

in SnGs:
I start off folding nearly every single hand. the only hands i play are AKo/s, AA, KK and QQ. hands like AQ, AJ, JJ and TT, i'll also play but only if i have nice position and there hasn't been a lot of strength shown. UTG, i'll fold a hand like AJs at the start of an sng.
whenever I do play a hand I usually raise with them.
i might play hands like 87s or 33 or A2s if I think there is a high chance I can see a cheap flop. i won't raise these hands preflop early in an sng. maybe only if it's folded to me on the button.

as the blinds start to go up and/or there are less players at the table and/or less players are seeing flops i'll start stealing the blinds and try to build my stack.

when it gets down to the final 3 or 4 players i'll be playing a lot of hands.

when you say, "play more aggressively" - what do you mean by that?
do you mean the hands you do play you should raise a lot. or, do you mean you should play a looser selection of starting hands.
when i play a hand i will always be looking to bet it. if i hit i'll bet. if i miss and there's only 2/3 players in the hand, i'll usually bet the flop. preflop i'll bet. i don't ever limp with strong hands really.

the only time i won't be betting is when i limp a hand like 33 or 87s. i'll check/fold if i miss and there are 3 or more players in the hand. if i hit then i'll be betting my hand. sometimes i'll slowplay, but only if it's really strong hand. like a fullhouse.

thanks for all the replies.

[jackvance]

I've noticed the same thing on Full Tilt.. it seems like raises get no respect there. Cbets get raised way more often than at other places.. or the very annoying call/lead line.. still don't know what to make of that.