Average Hourly Income?

[noble007]

Hi there, I am fairly new to money poker +-1 month, I often see players referring to their poker returns as B.B per 100 hands over say 10 000
hands. But when you take into account that most of you guys can multi-table 3+ tables it is hard for me to get an idea of how many hands a decent player is playing per hour and therefore how many B.B you can stand to earn per hour on avg. If you are above a certain skill level.

So my question is this, can some of the better players let me know what long term avg hourly return in $ they think is possible on A)25 Nl and B)50 Nl
Thankyou.

(Personally I have only played 5k hands on an initial 55$ deposit that has had a low of 25$ and a high of 140$, so I still have a long way to go - but at least I haven't lost it yet

[Renton]

My rate averaged ever since I started playing 25nl (and now I play 200nl) is $34.76 an hour. This is over 122,144 hands and 326 hours, playing an average of 6 tables.

My current rate playing the game I almost exclusively play (200nl full ring) is $97.08 an hour. This is over 54,440 hands and 111.12 hours, playing an average of 10 tables.

My winrate at 200nl is just over 3.5 ptbb/100, a pretty modest winrate.

At 50nl a decent player can make 6-8 ptbb/100 over the long term. If you 8 table 50nl full ring, this comes out to be about 30-40 dollars an hour.

[jackvance]

Those are some pretty sick numbers Renton. Complaining about downswings yet you're raking in $100/hour?

[noble007]

Thanks for those numbers Renton, if I can get to a point in the next 3 months where I can get 8ptbb/100 on 25Nl over 6 tables or 12$ an hour I'll be pretty happy.

How many hours do you put in a week? I mean if I could avg 50$ plus an hour like you can I would be playing day and night - or are there specific times of day that are more profitable? ( I am in London if that makes a difference.)

[arkana]

noble007 you will be much better off focusing on learning to play well than trying to set winrate goals. Winrates dont converge over 10k hands, you have to play a very large number of hands to get a good idea of what your winrate is. Trying to make a certain amount of money is just going to frustrate you and if you hit a downswing it will be so much worse. For now you should be spending all your energy on improving your game and not on results, think of it as investing in something that will pay off later.

Here are some rough figures for 25-50nl anyway (Rentons numbers look very high IMO) :
reasonable player: 2-3PTBB/100
good player: 4-9PTBB/100
very good player: 10PTBB/100 +

a PTBB is 2 big blinds, so 5PTBB/100 will be 10 big blinds per 100 hands and if you play 4 $25NL tables at 75 hands per hour you should make about 30 big blinds per hour which is almost $8 per hour.

Renton

Are you saying you made a little more than 11k at 25NL over 120000 hands? That would be astounding since it converts to
11000/120000*100/0.25 = 37 big blinds / 100 or 18.5PTBB/100. Very nice, but why would you stay at 25NL so long if you were making that much money? Wish it was possible to beat 100NL+ for these rates.

[jackvance]

Noble, you have to understand though how these numbers come to be. You won't be like "ok let's play 5 hours, and my winrate is $50/hour".. and then make $250. It's going to be.. very erratic.

A great example is this one. It's from a session Gabe played. He played 3 hours, 12-tabling 1000NL.. and made $1500. That's $500/hour. But look at how it swings. Look at the graph. He played for 3 ptBB/100, but the sheer amount of tables and very high stake make this such a high monetary gain.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-38147.htm

Now, at lower stakes you can maintain a higher winrate (I think 10-15 ptBB/100, very longterm, up to 50NL is very doable) but still it'll be very swingy. You might even run break-even or negative over, say, 10k-20k hands. So you REALLY need longterm perspective and not shortterm here.. shortterm just play your best and improve.

[noble007]

Thanks for your responses, I guess the reason I was asking about quantifying
winrates was just to get some idea of what was possible eventually if I did improve my game to a certain level. So I do realise that I do need to work on improving my game in general first & foremost. On that note what do you guys think of Aok's 19 hand chart listed a few posts down in this forum?
I have played it for 2k hands & I feel it has really improved my game
(although I realise that this is way too small a sample to make any
real conclusions.) Nonetheless I will be using that chart with a few modifications over the next 2k hands to see how that feels. (Can you let me know what you think these modifications and if any are sub-optimal as well as any other tips that would help me improve my game.)

1. Instead of C-betting every hand I raise on the flop I will only C-bet +-60%
(The reason for this is that people will call with any marginal hand once they see I am a serial c-bettor & if I don't bet on the turn they will & I'll fold.)
2.Instead of raising 5x B.B with AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK,AQ, I will only raise 3-4x
B.B (The reason for this is because people often see that I am playing a tight game and even though I am playing at a loose table everyone will fold +-40% of the time I bet.)
3.From pos 6 up I will also call the B.B with A10,K10s,Q10s,J10s, A9&A8s & from the SB I will call the B.B with any Ax suited & suited connectors over 6 as long as there are 2+other callers. (The reason for this is that the first set of cards are +ev on the FTR 10 player chart and also so that it doesn't appear that I am playing supertight so people will call me more when I do make a hand.)

[jyms]

It's an excellent starting strategy. It'll preserve your deposit at the micro level FR and up to $25NL. Most detractors of the strategy are beyond it. It's a great place to start and AoK will be the first to tell you this. Use it to learn the money game and to be conservative, then look for places to expand from. Position first and starting requirements second.

On your point's you make, #1 and #2, do not over value how much these people are watching you. Depending on the stakes, most don't even watch the board, only their hand. They will, @$2NL, $5NL, $10NL, bet 2 pair on a flush or paired board. They will bet middle pair with 4 callers, and will take KK, AA to the river calling any bet with out even seeing the boards cards. On #3, this should be a good start to moving away from the starting strategy, but know why you are doing this and do not get into big pots on the river with TPand a 10 kicker. when opening up you are trying to hit the flop and take it right there, monster pots are for monster hands.

[jackvance]

I think the 19 hands strategy is a great way to protect yourself from blowing money needlessly and learning the game in the process.

Once you start to make modifications, it means it's already working. You're seeing what works and what doesn't, developing your own playstyle etc.

[Renton]

Renton

Are you saying you made a little more than 11k at 25NL over 120000 hands? That would be astounding since it converts to
11000/120000*100/0.25 = 37 big blinds / 100 or 18.5PTBB/100. Very nice, but why would you stay at 25NL so long if you were making that much money? Wish it was possible to beat 100NL+ for these rates.

My first hourly rate number is an average of every hand I have ever played at every stake since I started. Its mostly 100nl and 200nl.

[arkana]

My bad, read that wrong.