Post-flop aggression w/ low PP

[andy609]

When is it appropriate to bet post flop with an unimproved low pocket pair?

I think this is a leak in my game. For instance I am looking at 44. Someone raises small pf, I and one or two others call. Flop is rags like 872 rainbow. Having put the others on two high cards, I open the betting and get called. Invariably, I lose because someone has 66 or played w/ A7. If no one raised pf, the results are the same.

Should I quit betting at these pots or is there a more refined way to bet at these pots with these hands?

[aokrongly]

yea... um... don't do that anymore. I assume you are playing a ring game? The reason I say this is if you're playing SnG's then there are times when you would play an under pocket pair. But generally you are calling rasies up to 5xbb with a pp hoping to flop a set. Otherwise you're getting out of the hand. The exception is if you have say 99 and the board is 357. then you can play it likeyou would tptk. but generally you don't want "bluff"with these. you didn't raise preflop, so your bet is suspect AND someone with ak will probably call, so you can still be beat plus people do occassionallyrasie with big pocket pairs - at least where i play they do.

I would call them to flop a set and get out cheap if i don't.

[jackvance]

Ugh, I stopped making these "ok I don't have much but maybe I have the best hand" raises. I just found that I was leaking a lot of money the way you described.

Basically I asked myself "Who cares if I have the best hand or not here? Do I *really* want to spice the pot on such a shit hand??"

I still tell myself that sometimes when I notice this urge to play shit hands b/c "I might just have the best hand". I mean, otherwise you keep getting into horrible situation like a sudden huge pot and you get reraised on the river while sitting on your J2 TP because on the flop you thought that maybe "you had the best hand!!" Cost you half your stack to find out you didn't. So now I try to only spice pots where I have stronger hands


What I sometimes do though in such a situation, is bet a little over the pot. A sort of semi-bluff, since I have a semi-hand. Usually it's folds all around, cool. When someone calls, that sucks, and I'll stop investing money in the pot. In practice, more often than not it's just check check to the river and then again more often than not I take the pot b/c the only callers I got were draws (that ended up missing). It's probably not a +EV strategy in itself, but it fits into my style to increase my chance to get paid off with my made hands, since I like to raise aggressively with them so I want to set the stage to get callers.

[biondino]

Stop betting in EP and start betting in LP when the others check to you. If they do hold overs and don't believe you, they're unlikely to improve, so you can reevaluate on the turn.

I wouldn't usually bet if there are two cards on the flop above my PP, but if I have 77 and the flop is 23K I will certainly bet if checked to.

[Renton]

I don't go far with underpairs unless its heads up and I have position. Then, I can properly deduce whether Villain is on overs or a bigger pair. Even when you put him on overs, don't ever bet or raise. These bets and raises have no expected value, since if they have overs they'll just fold, but if that have you beat they will raise or call. Usually you should just call the c-bet. Then when he invariably checks the turn to you, either A) Bet and take it down (so he doesn't draw to 6 outs for free), or B) Check behind and call a bluff on the river, this is a play I like to make a lot.

Point is, I am never aggressive postflop with small pp's. I am always passive, unless of course I am bluffing.

[JB25163]

I will do this under certain conditions: 1) The flop has rags or something similar 2) If there is only one other player left in the hand with me and 3) I have a good read on him. I think position matters only a little IMO depending on how good your read is and how well you play it. Most importantly, you have to be able to get away from the hand if he comes back at you. By the same token if your positive you have the guy read and he comes back at you, push back into him harder. Lastly, be careful if doing this at the lower limits. As far as to what I would bet and when depends on the flow of the game, your reads and your table image. With that said, generally I don't make a habit of doing this. haha, I probably could have written that better, I tend to ramble on...

[Miffed22001]

best time to get aggressive with pps unimproved is where you enter a genuinly raised (not donk miniraised) pot and the flop is raggy or you think it mised your opponent. Then you prob ahve best hand and you have various lines available to you.

[salsa4ever]

you'll save a lot of money if you never bet your unimproved PP with 2 overcards if there are more than 2 players in the pot.

Assume an early standard raise, and you call with 55 and the others fold

Flop comes JJ2, or 843, or T74
If villain bets half the pot, you can generally raise it to 3 times his bet. Unless you see him check-folding hands after a PFR (i.e. he doesn't often make continuation bets). Alternatively you can flat call him. The problem with that is if your read is off, it's gonna be expensive. You flat call his KK and he fires again on a rag turn and you raise it thinking you have the best hand, and you're dead unless he lays it down thinking you have a set. I generally like raising lots to protect my hand if I think it's best because those low PPs are so hard to play. I can also see a free card and maybe induce a river bluff if I raise the flop.

If villain checks, you want reads. Is he capable of check raising a strong hand out of position on a raggy flop? Absent any read, I'm betting about 1/2 the pot and folding to aggression.

If you're OOP, and limp-called his raise and it's heads up and you got the same flop, there's three lines. You could check-fold. You could raise his cont bet 2.5-3x, especially if it's a weakish bet. Or you can just lead out for 2/3s of the pot. Especially if you're a player who doesn't mind leading out with a set.

I like a check raise line. It's very hard to call with overcards because the pot gets escalated so fast. It's also good to end the pot on the flop because you're out of position.

[Renton]

I like a check raise line. It's very hard to call with overcards because the pot gets escalated so fast.

Its also a very expensive line if they are sitting on a big pair. I do like to c/r sometimes, but I don't think it is good as a standard play.

If I put him on overs and he bets a JJ2 flop, most of the time I think its better to just call. Who cares if he gets to see the next card? He already is paying outside his odds to see the turn. If the turn is a blank, he will usually check to you. Then you can take down a pot of the same size with far less risk of chips.

I love exploiting people who check raise innocuous flops with small pairs. I am tight so a lot of the time I have an overpair in this situation. I usually call the c/r and then check the turn with the intention of raising him. They don't like it when I do that.

[Miffed22001]

I like a check raise line. It's very hard to call with overcards because the pot gets escalated so fast.

Its also a very expensive line if they are sitting on a big pair. I do like to c/r sometimes, but I don't think it is good as a standard play.

If I put him on overs and he bets a JJ2 flop, most of the time I think its better to just call. Who cares if he gets to see the next card? He already is paying outside his odds to see the turn. If the turn is a blank, he will usually check to you. Then you can take down a pot of the same size with far less risk of chips.

I love exploiting people who check raise innocuous flops with small pairs. I am tight so a lot of the time I have an overpair in this situation. I usually call the c/r and then check the turn with the intention of raising him. They don't like it when I do that.

i shove over your c/r line on the turn

You calling then?
So commited...

Big pairs dont check the turn. They arent that smart. Perhaps some ftr'ers are. Checking a lot of turns is a goodway of inducing overcalls/bluffs/overplays but it means you are a lot more commited to the pot. With big stacks and at a 400nl mayb 200nl game that plays quite deep staked regardless i can agree with your line as a solid standard line however below that or with a 100bbs stack i dont.

btw, if call a c/r flop line i aint putting another penny in the pot becasue you arent doing that with air a lot