Did I play this right?

[andy609]

It seems the opp could have easily had KJ or QJ, possibly with a flush draw as well. In that case he didn't have pot odds to call on the flop or the turn but caught on the river. A made flush isn't out of the question either.

PokerStars Game #4751054646: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2006/04/26 - 16:08:26 (ET)
Table 'Schilt' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: helbos tero ($22.65 in chips)
Seat 2: Dado2006 ($19.50 in chips)
Seat 3: nookiepwnz ($11 in chips)
Seat 4: futureman02 ($9.95 in chips)
Seat 5: cbanister ($36.10 in chips)
Seat 6: Beardoman ($9.90 in chips)
Seat 7: andy609 ($9.50 in chips)
Seat 8: 64FLASH ($13.40 in chips)
Seat 9: Boktor_Durda ($11.35 in chips)
nookiepwnz said, "that'd be sweet"
Beardoman: posts small blind $0.05
andy609: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to andy609 [Tc Jc]
64FLASH: calls $0.10
Boktor_Durda: folds
helbos tero: calls $0.10
Dado2006: folds
nookiepwnz: calls $0.10
futureman02: calls $0.10
cbanister: folds
Beardoman: calls $0.05
andy609: checks
*** FLOP *** [Js 9s Ts]
Beardoman: checks
andy609: bets $0.50
64FLASH: folds
helbos tero: calls $0.50
nookiepwnz: calls $0.50
futureman02: calls $0.50
Beardoman: folds
*** TURN *** [Js 9s Ts] [5d]
64FLASH is sitting out
andy609: bets $1.40
helbos tero: calls $1.40
nookiepwnz: folds
futureman02: folds
*** RIVER *** [Js 9s Ts 5d] [Kh]
andy609: checks
helbos tero: bets $3.60
andy609: folds
helbos tero collected $5.15 from pot
helbos tero: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5.40 | Rake $0.25
Board [Js 9s Ts 5d Kh]
Seat 1: helbos tero collected ($5.15)
Seat 2: Dado2006 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: nookiepwnz folded on the Turn
Seat 4: futureman02 folded on the Turn
Seat 5: cbanister (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Beardoman (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: andy609 (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 8: 64FLASH folded on the Flop
Seat 9: Boktor_Durda folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[andy-akb]

I think Im probably betting a little more on the turn and then making a small blocking bet on the river. I really dont know though and Im curious to see what people say here, I never know how to play a river like this OOP.

[jackvance]

Extremely draw-heavy flop, I would probably bet $0.70-$1 here b/c another spade or anything close to the 9TJ is a big head-ache so I'd rather get out of this hand or make the drawers pay hard. Hell, I might even put $2 on this flop just to avoid later problems.. the callers will then atleast have some sort of made hand like AT or a pair and a gut shot (KJ) or straight draw (QJ).. so I have them beat and only need to watch out for possible straight-completing turn and river cards - but atleast I gave em bad odds to chase.

Ofcourse $0.50 is fine too, it's just my personaly preference to bet more in this case. Now you get 3 callers.. damn, but the relief is that the turn is a blank. Now I feel you made a mistake. Pot is $2.60. Three people in there, possible drawers giving each-other good odds if they all call again, yet you decrease your bet? (percentage-wise to the pot) I put atleast $3 on the table here.

[andy-akb]

Jack, do you really want to discourage action so much as to overbet the flop? What are the advantages of betting almost twice the pot as opposed to the pot? How do you react if somebody raises your bet of $1 into a pot of $0.60?

[benny999]

like others said, the turn bet was too weak. im working on this type of leak now - betting "feeler/blocking" bets on the turn with scary boards.

and like you said, the most likely holdings are pair/draw or pure draw - so bet around pot-sized on the turn, then probably check/fold the river if called on the turn...but maybe a 1/4-1/3 pot block bet would be better - id also like to see what others think of the river.

the other option is to check it down after the flop and wait for better opportunities. either way, the turn bet = no good.

[jackvance]

Jack, do you really want to discourage action so much as to overbet the flop? What are the advantages of betting almost twice the pot as opposed to the pot? How do you react if somebody raises your bet of $1 into a pot of $0.60?

The problem is, my game is really read-dependant. I can't give clear-cut answers because I have no real standard game.. I have a lot concepts and strategies in my head and I vary them depending on my reads. That's why I suck at playing more than two 6-max tables at once.. I get totally disoriented.

That being said.. in my games it is not too uncommon to overbet the pot depending on the situation. I do it, others, thinking players, do it too (at 10NL and 20NL) with good reason. This seems like a classic example of where I would overbet the pot.

You have a hand that is hard to get away from.. top two pair.. but it's very fragile on such a draw-heavy flop with so many people around. If I bet a more standard amount to discourage (or give bad odds to) the chasers, too many of em will probably call.. and there's a real chance someone will hit something, and then what? Maybe they didn't hit? Remember also that if more than one guy calls your 5/6 pot bet, basically all of them suddenly have decent odds to chase.

A big reverse-implied odds situation for you with your top two pair.

I can't readily say when I would bet $2 instead of $1 though.. I think when I have noticed my opponents like to chase a lot, then I'll go higher. Then I'll get 1-2 to call, and I have those beat probably plus I go into the turn on a huge pot and they have like 1/6 (2-edged straight draw) or 1/12 (gut shot) to hit. So basically I overbet the pot here so that I'll be in a situation where I have the best odds - less chasers that have to pay more, instead of in a bad situation - lots of chasers who I've all given good odds to call.

Also consider that there might be a made straight on the flop.. depending on how the table plays, getting a caller might clue you off that he hit something.. if you overraise the pot maybe you get lucky and he'll reraise you and you can easily fold On a tighter table I would probably stop investing money into this pot and fold to aggression (not minbets ofcourse) afterwards.. this is an annoying situation and I'd rather put more money in a pot where I have a better idea of where I stand.


Oh and the river, or in any case if I suspect a "hit" I'd block bet.. the hands that I have beat will fold/call, the ones that beat me raise me. The pot is $5.15 by the river right? So I'd bet around $2 here.

I mean, if you check here.. you might get bluffed out of a better hand. I doubt it in this case, since his raise seems more like a made straight.. but let's say he had AK all along and was chasing a gutshot or hoped for his 6 outs. Finally he hit TPTK, which you have beat. If you check, he thinks you probably missed your straight draw and have nothing, and bets into you. I'm just saying all this is possible. If you bet like $2 here.. he'll atleast call with his TPTK.

[Anosmic]

Had something similar this evening. Was multi-tabling and almost timed out on the flop, hence the sucky minraise.

***** Hand History for Game 4100077218 *****
$5 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, April 26, 16:17:47 ET 2006
Table Beginners #1240618 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: alan01_19 ( $4.04 )
Seat 3: ymene1 ( $4.84 )
Seat 4: Nsebuga ( $4.67 )
Seat 5: ContinoS ( $5.19 )
Seat 6: BLUFFER_MEXX ( $6.18 )
Seat 7: Doublfish ( $5.24 )
Seat 9: RS__Jack ( $10.31 )
Seat 10: pald99640 ( $4.83 )
Seat 8: XenoXX4 ( $3.60 )
Seat 2: AnosmicAK ( $4.96 )
alan01_19 posts small blind [$0.02].
AnosmicAK posts big blind [$0.04].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to AnosmicAK [ Ts Jd ]
>You have options at Beginners #1240623 Table!.
ymene1 calls [$0.04].
Nsebuga folds.
ContinoS folds.
BLUFFER_MEXX folds.
Doublfish calls [$0.04].
XenoXX4 folds.
RS__Jack calls [$0.04].
pald99640 calls [$0.04].
alan01_19 calls [$0.02].
AnosmicAK checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Td, Qd, Js ]
alan01_19 bets [$0.04].
AnosmicAK raises [$0.08].
ymene1 calls [$0.08].
Doublfish calls [$0.08].
RS__Jack calls [$0.08].
pald99640 folds.
alan01_19 calls [$0.04].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3h ]
alan01_19 checks.
AnosmicAK bets [$1].
ymene1 folds.
Doublfish folds.
RS__Jack folds.
alan01_19 calls [$1].
** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]
alan01_19 checks.
AnosmicAK bets [$1].
alan01_19 calls [$1].
AnosmicAK shows [ Ts, Jd ] two pairs, jacks and tens.
alan01_19 shows [ 9h, 8s ] a straight, eight to queen.
alan01_19 wins $4.44 from the main pot with a straight, eight to queen.

Edit: A converted version. Didn't realise the converter could handle this output from PT.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($4.04)
Hero ($4.96)
UTG ($4.84)
UTG+1 ($4.67)
UTG+2 ($5.19)
MP1 ($6.18)
MP2 ($5.24)
MP3 ($3.60)
CO ($10.31)
Button ($4.83)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T, J. SB posts a blind of $0.02.
UTG calls $0.04, 3 folds, MP2 calls $0.04, 1 fold, CO calls $0.04, Button calls $0.04, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.24) T, Q, J (6 players)
SB bets $0.04, Hero raises to $0.08, UTG calls $0.08, MP2 calls $0.08, CO calls $0.08, Button folds, SB calls $0.04.

Turn: ($0.64) 3 (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1, UTG folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, SB calls $1.

River: ($2.64) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1, SB calls $1.

Final Pot: $4.64

Results in white below:
SB has 9h 8s (straight, queen high).
Hero has Ts Jd (two pair, jacks and tens).
Outcome: SB wins $4.64.

[andy-akb]

Had something similar this evening. Was multi-tabling and almost timed out on the flop, hence the sucky minraise.

How many tables were you at when you almost timed out? Dont play too many tables when you are just starting out, its much more important to work on grasping the fundamentals and developing your play than trying to play more tables.

***** Hand History for Game 4100077218 *****
$5 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, April 26, 16:17:47 ET 2006
Table Beginners #1240618 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: alan01_19 ( $4.04 )
Seat 3: ymene1 ( $4.84 )
Seat 4: Nsebuga ( $4.67 )
Seat 5: ContinoS ( $5.19 )
Seat 6: BLUFFER_MEXX ( $6.18 )
Seat 7: Doublfish ( $5.24 )
Seat 9: RS__Jack ( $10.31 )
Seat 10: pald99640 ( $4.83 )
Seat 8: XenoXX4 ( $3.60 )
Seat 2: AnosmicAK ( $4.96 )
alan01_19 posts small blind [$0.02].
AnosmicAK posts big blind [$0.04].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to AnosmicAK [ Ts Jd ]
>You have options at Beginners #1240623 Table!.
ymene1 calls [$0.04].
Nsebuga folds.
ContinoS folds.
BLUFFER_MEXX folds.
Doublfish calls [$0.04].
XenoXX4 folds.
RS__Jack calls [$0.04].
pald99640 calls [$0.04].
alan01_19 calls [$0.02].
AnosmicAK checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Td, Qd, Js ]
alan01_19 bets [$0.04].
AnosmicAK raises [$0.08].
ymene1 calls [$0.08].
Doublfish calls [$0.08].
RS__Jack calls [$0.08].
pald99640 folds.
alan01_19 calls [$0.04].

Even if you are almost timing out, take a split second to move the slider to a potsized raise. On a draw heavy board like this you need to be raising to the size of the pot, everybody in this hand is getting odds to make a flush, straight, etc.

** Dealing Turn ** [ 3h ]
alan01_19 checks.
AnosmicAK bets [$1].
ymene1 folds.
Doublfish folds.
RS__Jack folds.
alan01_19 calls [$1].

Im not sure what the pot is, but this bet seems better. Run your hands through a converter, that makes them much easier to analyze

** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]
alan01_19 checks.
AnosmicAK bets [$1].
alan01_19 calls [$1].
AnosmicAK shows [ Ts, Jd ] two pairs, jacks and tens.
alan01_19 shows [ 9h, 8s ] a straight, eight to queen.
alan01_19 wins $4.44 from the main pot with a straight, eight to queen.

As played I think you either should be checking behind or making a little bigger bet for value. You bet $1 on the turn, and then on the river with a bigger pot you make the same bet.

[jackvance]

Very friendly opponent to not check-raise you on the river. Does this guy typically call a raise that is larger than the pot on a draw? If not, I'd probably check behind on this river.

[Stagemn]

***** Hand History for Game 4100077218 *****
$5 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, April 26, 16:17:47 ET 2006
Table Beginners #1240618 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: alan01_19 ( $4.04 )
Seat 3: ymene1 ( $4.84 )
Seat 4: Nsebuga ( $4.67 )
Seat 5: ContinoS ( $5.19 )
Seat 6: BLUFFER_MEXX ( $6.18 )
Seat 7: Doublfish ( $5.24 )
Seat 9: RS__Jack ( $10.31 )
Seat 10: pald99640 ( $4.83 )
Seat 8: XenoXX4 ( $3.60 )
Seat 2: AnosmicAK ( $4.96 )
alan01_19 posts small blind [$0.02].
AnosmicAK posts big blind [$0.04].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to AnosmicAK [ Ts Jd ]
>You have options at Beginners #1240623 Table!.
ymene1 calls [$0.04].
Nsebuga folds.
ContinoS folds.
BLUFFER_MEXX folds.
Doublfish calls [$0.04].
XenoXX4 folds.
RS__Jack calls [$0.04].
pald99640 calls [$0.04].
alan01_19 calls [$0.02].
AnosmicAK checks.

I like this only becuase you're in early position (On BB) and gets you a free look. Unlike Andy where yours is offsuit, his I woul'dve pre-flop raised to void loose players limping.

** Dealing Flop ** [ Td, Qd, Js ]
alan01_19 bets [$0.04].
AnosmicAK raises [$0.08].
ymene1 calls [$0.08].
Doublfish calls [$0.08].
RS__Jack calls [$0.08].
pald99640 folds.
alan01_19 calls [$0.04].

I don't like your play here. Pot is at $0.24 at flop. You hit 2 pairs. You have a str8 or a str8 draw possible as well as a flush draw. Your raise should've been at pot size to avoid odds here of calling. A caller well tell you possible straight already made or maybe a QT/QJ being held. It looks like alan01_19 was putting a blocking bet here on you. Notice only one fold and 6 callers!!! You're giving odds to all the mentioned above, even TPTK.

** Dealing Turn ** [ 3h ]
alan01_19 checks.
AnosmicAK bets [$1].
ymene1 folds.
Doublfish folds.
RS__Jack folds.
alan01_19 calls [$1].

Now you overbet the pot and so all but the best hand folds. Remember alan called your raise prior and then checked to you on a dead card. At a pot size of $0.64, it's a pot size bet here and check/fold if he calls it on the river.

** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]
alan01_19 checks.
AnosmicAK bets [$1].
alan01_19 calls [$1].

A check here is worth seeing it or even a blocking bet at maybe $0.50. He folds you're good. He calls, it cost you little to see his hand. He raises and it's auto fold.

You made mistakes on the flop, turn, and river. You might of had it already on the flop unless he was holding AK, but with no PFRaise, he'll figure that out easily. That's why on JTs on BB, I will PFR to avoid loose limpers.

[andy-akb]

** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]
alan01_19 checks.
AnosmicAK bets [$1].
alan01_19 calls [$1].

A check here is worth seeing it or even a blocking bet at maybe $0.50. He folds you're good. He calls, it cost you little to see his hand. He raises and it's auto fold.
[/quote]
You cant make a blocking bet in position. A blocking bet is when you make a bet becuase you think itll likely get called and not raised and be cheaper than check/calling. If you are worried about his hand or just want to see it for a cheap showdown, then check behind. If you think you are ahead and wont get checkraised, then bet more for value.

You made mistakes on the flop, turn, and river. You might of had it already on the flop unless he was holding AK, but with no PFRaise, he'll figure that out easily. That's why on JTs on BB, I will PFR to avoid loose limpers.

He had JTo, and either way with 5 other people in the pot you dont want to isolate with a suited [or unsuited] connector, especially OOP. Suited connecters do well in multi-way pots, you want all of those people in it, because your implied odds go through the roof and it is unlikely that you are dominated. With a pocket pair or a hand like AQ you want to raise to drive out other hands, like suited connectors. Im oversimplifying this, but out of the blinds I dont think its a good play to raise with a connecter with the intention of pushing limpers out.
[/quote]

[Anosmic]

Had something similar this evening. Was multi-tabling and almost timed out on the flop, hence the sucky minraise.

How many tables were you at when you almost timed out? Dont play too many tables when you are just starting out, its much more important to work on grasping the fundamentals and developing your play than trying to play more tables.

Four. It's rarely a problem; only if I get a couple of hands that require extra attention at the same time.

It's a constant search for balance. Playing 4xtables is giving me quite a lot of profit and letting me try lots of stuff during the 45 "beginner days" at Party.
On the other hand focusing on just one table would allow me to practice other things in more depth.

I made the mistake of playing on two different sites the other day. Stupid software jumped over the top of another window to show me a flop (in the hand I folded) and the other table auto-folded AA. Nearly tilted after that one.

Even if you are almost timing out, take a split second to move the slider to a potsized raise. On a draw heavy board like this you need to be raising to the size of the pot, everybody in this hand is getting odds to make a flush, straight, etc.

If I could have, I would have.
With time running out and risking autofolding 2p I decided it best to get any raise in.

Im not sure what the pot is, but this bet seems better. Run your hands through a converter, that makes them much easier to analyze

It's over-betting the pot with the aim of getting the result I should have got on the flop.
I didn't realise the converter would handle the PT dump. But it does, which is cool.

As played I think you either should be checking behind or making a little bigger bet for value. You bet $1 on the turn, and then on the river with a bigger pot you make the same bet.

Well, to be honest I was mostly trying for a bet I thought he'd call. I considered it unlikely he had a straight as KA would have probably raised pf. Didn't really consider 89. Which was stupid.