Good god, please help me fix my leaks, AKs

[Vinterriket]

This is probably the worst I've played a hand in weeks.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP2 ($25)
CO ($12.05)
Button ($50.50)
SB ($40.60)
BB ($13.45)
Hero ($16.95)
UTG+1 ($24)
MP1 ($9.75)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, K.
Hero raises to $0.95, 3 folds, CO calls $0.95, 2 folds, BB calls $0.70.

Flop: ($2.95) Q, 5, J (3 players)
BB bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, CO raises to $0.5, BB calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25.

Do you always c-bet on a flop like this? After a minbet? My thinking was that the Q or J probably hit one of these two guys and I have 2 overcards and a gutshot str8 draw so I should try to see cheap cards. What does CO's minraise indicate? I still have excellent odds to call and shouldnt reraise CO's raise, yes?

Turn: ($4.45) A (3 players)
BB bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, CO raises to $3, BB folds, Hero calls $2.75.

OK, I hit my ace and again BB minbets. I am confident I am ahead of BB now but CO was the one who showed the last aggression. Should I raise here? If so, how much? How bad is it to check to the CO to see what he does? Do you fold here to his raise? Do you reraise him here?

River: ($10.70) A (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5, Hero raises to $10, CO calls $2.60 (All-In).

Can you find a fold here?

Final Pot: $28.30

Results in white below:
Hero has As Ks (three of a kind, aces).
CO has 5d 5c (full house, fives full of aces).


I hate c-betting into a multiway pot with AK on a QJx board. Is this a leak? How bad is it to give up initiative now that your hand is a drawing hand in a multiway pot? All you have is A high but you have 2 overcards, backdoor flush draw, and nut straight draw.

Gah, plz help.

[Pelion]

This is probably the worst I've played a hand in weeks.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP2 ($25)
CO ($12.05)
Button ($50.50)
SB ($40.60)
BB ($13.45)
Hero ($16.95)
UTG+1 ($24)
MP1 ($9.75)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, K.
Hero raises to $0.95, 3 folds, CO calls $0.95, 2 folds, BB calls $0.70.

Id make it $1 or $1.25 but preflop doesnt matter that much

Flop: ($2.95) Q, 5, J (3 players)
BB bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, CO raises to $0.5, BB calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25.

On a board like this the minbet from BB probably means a Q with a weak kicker or a J witha decent kicker. It could also mean streaight draw but thats alot less likely. I might raise if I think he can fold a weak Q, but against a calling station (most likely given the action so far) you have to just call. God knows what that minraise from CO means, other than "I am a donk"


Turn: ($4.45) A (3 players)
BB bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, CO raises to $3, BB folds, Hero calls $2.75.

Excellent card. Unless BB had the straight draw with exactly KT you are probably ahead. I probably raise it here. If you raise and CO comes over the top you might be able to get away depending on reads.
As played CO could now have any A (including 2 pairs) or the straight or even something like KJ. I like betting out here to see where I am but as played im not giving up just because a shortstack has bet at weakness.

River: ($10.70) A (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5, Hero raises to $10, CO calls $2.60 (All-In).

Once again shortie bets at weakness. He could have alot of hands here. The value raise is good and you cant fold to him shoving the rest in. You didnt ask any questions with your betting so you had no way to know if you were behind once you hit. I take it you lost from your comments but I dont think there was any way you could have gotten away from this against half a stack when you were only calling minbets until you hit. He could well have had an A aswell.


Can you find a fold here?
Probably not.


I hate c-betting into a multiway pot with AK on a QJx board. Is this a leak? How bad is it to give up initiative now that your hand is a drawing hand in a multiway pot? All you have is A high but you have 2 overcards, backdoor flush draw, and nut straight draw.

I like it. Alot of the time you will get credit for the J or Q and if you dont you usually have 10 outs. I think a cbet is +EV against most opponents.

I love your avatar

[Vinterriket]

haha thanks

anyone wanna comment on how terribly i played this hand?

[Renton]

Preflop I'd bet more, probably 1.25 (I play at party, which is looser, 1.00 might be a good raise at stars).

I'd raise the BB's flop minbet to 2.00 and fold to any reraise.

As played past the flop, I'd raise the min bet to 3/4 of the pot and fold to a reraise.

Notice how I keep saying "and I'd fold to a reraise?" If you would have played this hand the way I am saying, you'd have found out where you stood on the flop and saved yourself a stack.

Now you were stacked by a set, but what I think happens here more often is that you get stacked by two pair. You can't bet positive that the A helps you on the turn in a three way pot where the people behind cold called your preflop raise. AQ or AJ could have sucked out on the flop and paired their kicker on the turn.

I think the 10 supposed outs (3 A's, 3 K's, and 4 T's) you had on the flop we're enough to warrant a raise of the bb's minbet. 9 times out of 10 you take down a decent pot right then and there. In this case, you'd have likely been reraised by Mr. Set and been able to get out of the hand BEFORE the Aces started peeling off the deck.

[Fnord]

Turn is a pretty easy fold, 1 pair no g00t on that board.

[Vinterriket]

aye, I think my turn play was the worst, shoulda raised (after the minbet) to see where I'm at and fold to any resistance and as played definately fold to CO's raise.

Yea I need to raise to see where I stand more often.... *note to self

[BankItDrew]

I'd raise more preflop. I like to make it 5-6bb.

Flop is fine, because you're getting good odds to call.

Turn is no good. CO liked that flop and was building the pot with a min raise. Then he saw an ace on the turn and bet it even harder! The hands you beat (KQ, AT or worse) don't play like this.

No need to raise for information on this board, because you don't have a hand that's good enough to be raising into raisers.

p.s.
I would lay down any hand to the girl in your avatar if it would make her happy. Do you like mine? Don't I look sexay?

[Vinterriket]

sexy beast

[drmcboy]

no one has mentioned the river, so I will, DON'T RAISE.

[piratepeaty]

This is probably the worst I've played a hand in weeks.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP2 ($25)
CO ($12.05)
Button ($50.50)
SB ($40.60)
BB ($13.45)
Hero ($16.95)
UTG+1 ($24)
MP1 ($9.75)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, K.
Hero raises to $0.95, 3 folds, CO calls $0.95, 2 folds, BB calls $0.70.

Flop: ($2.95) Q, 5, J (3 players)
BB bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, CO raises to $0.5, BB calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25.

Do you always c-bet on a flop like this? After a minbet? My thinking was that the Q or J probably hit one of these two guys and I have 2 overcards and a gutshot str8 draw so I should try to see cheap cards. What does CO's minraise indicate? I still have excellent odds to call and shouldnt reraise CO's raise, yes?

Turn: ($4.45) A (3 players)
BB bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, CO raises to $3, BB folds, Hero calls $2.75.

OK, I hit my ace and again BB minbets. I am confident I am ahead of BB now but CO was the one who showed the last aggression. Should I raise here? If so, how much? How bad is it to check to the CO to see what he does? Do you fold here to his raise? Do you reraise him here?

River: ($10.70) A (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5, Hero raises to $10, CO calls $2.60 (All-In).

Can you find a fold here?

Final Pot: $28.30

Results in white below:
Hero has As Ks (three of a kind, aces).
CO has 5d 5c (full house, fives full of aces).


I hate c-betting into a multiway pot with AK on a QJx board. Is this a leak? How bad is it to give up initiative now that your hand is a drawing hand in a multiway pot? All you have is A high but you have 2 overcards, backdoor flush draw, and nut straight draw.

Gah, plz help.

What is with the .95 raise preflop? odd amount but looks ok.

I hate the flop. The call is ok, but it doesn't protect anything, and it lets K10 draw cheap. I raise it to $2.5, then when UTG raises you, you have a much easier decision, especially if BB calls his raise. Turn then plays totally different.

As played, the turn call is gross. BB min bet again. You should raise here, CO could be pouncing on BB obvious weak hand, and you have shown no strength. Again, if you raise BB, your decision becomes easy when CO reraises. Again the river plays totally different then.

As played, on the river, calling would be correct. Any hand that beats you is calling your raise. Any hand that folds you beat already beat.

[piratepeaty]

aye, I think my turn play was the worst, shoulda raised (after the minbet) to see where I'm at and fold to any resistance and as played definately fold to CO's raise.

Yea I need to raise to see where I stand more often.... *note to self

Raising to see where you stand is a common idea in poker. But raising strictly for information is an abused tactic.

Theory of Poker says "consider any information gained [by raising] as an extra benefit of a raise you are making for other reasons." I whole-heartedly agree.

I will mention that like everything in poker I am aware that there are sometimes when raising for information as a primary reason for the raising is beneficial. But I hear countless player advise players to "find out where you are" when raising isn't the optimal play. Even more often,I see players recommend a raise correctly but the reason they give is to "find out where you are", when it is clearly not the reason. Understanding the correct play is just as important, if not more important than making the correct play. If you understand why you are doing something, you won't misapply the concept as often. Thus, you will fix leaks quickly.

Onward. The basic reasons for raising include raising for value, raising to protect your hand, or to bluff/semi bluff.

In this example, I recommended you raise the flop. It is not "to see where you are". The information may be helpful in later decisions, but it's not the reason you make the play. If you think it is for information tell me... what does it mean when he calls? It could mean he has a pair, 2 pair, a draw, trips... it really doesn't help you at all.

So why raise here? I can think of 2 primary reasons. For protection, and to act as a semi-bluff. It's possible you have the best hand, and if so, you are vunerable to much of the deck. It also protects you against CO (and BB). If he hit a weak Q or a strong J (even sometimes a strong Q) he may fold to a bet and a raise. You were the preflop raiser; it's pretty easy to put you on a big hand. If you are called, it is not all bad because you have outs vs. most hands. If he raises the flop, you can consider that some additional information that would be an extra benefit.

[dpe8598]

Another thing people don't consider about raises, they can win the hand and a percentage of the time they WILL when the hand. That is good.

[Vinterriket]

Raising to see where you stand is a common idea in poker. But raising strictly for information is an abused tactic.

So why raise here? I can think of 2 primary reasons. For protection, and to act as a semi-bluff. It's possible you have the best hand, and if so, you are vunerable to much of the deck. It also protects you against CO (and BB). If he hit a weak Q or a strong J (even sometimes a strong Q) he may fold to a bet and a raise. You were the preflop raiser; it's pretty easy to put you on a big hand. If you are called, it is not all bad because you have outs vs. most hands. If he raises the flop, you can consider that some additional information that would be an extra benefit.

I agree and I do usually raise here for the reasons you mentioned (semi-bluff, maintaining aggression from preflop, info, etc.)

One of my reasons for checking here was that I raised preflop, got 2 callers, and the flop is QJx. If either caller has (AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, TJ, QJ, all PP) they are now ahead. Yes I can maintain aggression and probably get a decent amount of that range to fold.

Typically AK is considered a drawing hand, and after this flop I still have a drawing hand (2 overcards, gutshot str8, nut backdoor flush). Is it never correct to try to see cheap cards yourself (since your drawing) when a flop comes out (QJx) that quite possibly hit one of the preflop callers?

Generalized Question:
If you were the preflop raiser and get a multiway pot. After the flop you have a decent drawing hand. Do you c-bet here as a semi-bluff and possibly take the pot down now? Or, do you give up initiative and try to see cards cheaply now that you have a strong drawing hand in a multiway pot?

[Dortmunder13]

aye, I think my turn play was the worst, shoulda raised (after the minbet) to see where I'm at and fold to any resistance and as played definately fold to CO's raise.

Yea I need to raise to see where I stand more often.... *note to self

Raising to see where you stand is a common idea in poker. But raising strictly for information is an abused tactic.

Theory of Poker says "consider any information gained [by raising] as an extra benefit of a raise you are making for other reasons." I whole-heartedly agree.

I will mention that like everything in poker I am aware that there are sometimes when raising for information as a primary reason for the raising is beneficial. But I hear countless player advise players to "find out where you are" when raising isn't the optimal play. Even more often,I see players recommend a raise correctly but the reason they give is to "find out where you are", when it is clearly not the reason. Understanding the correct play is just as important, if not more important than making the correct play. If you understand why you are doing something, you won't misapply the concept as often. Thus, you will fix leaks quickly.

Onward. The basic reasons for raising include raising for value, raising to protect your hand, or to bluff/semi bluff.

In this example, I recommended you raise the flop. It is not "to see where you are". The information may be helpful in later decisions, but it's not the reason you make the play. If you think it is for information tell me... what does it mean when he calls? It could mean he has a pair, 2 pair, a draw, trips... it really doesn't help you at all.

So why raise here? I can think of 2 primary reasons. For protection, and to act as a semi-bluff. It's possible you have the best hand, and if so, you are vunerable to much of the deck. It also protects you against CO (and BB). If he hit a weak Q or a strong J (even sometimes a strong Q) he may fold to a bet and a raise. You were the preflop raiser; it's pretty easy to put you on a big hand. If you are called, it is not all bad because you have outs vs. most hands. If he raises the flop, you can consider that some additional information that would be an extra benefit.

I think the main point of raising for information is just that: you get information. Poker is a game of having more information then your opponents. This is why position is so important.

Consider the above hand. If Vinterriket raises and gets called, he has gained information, that his opponent probably has a better hand then he does. If he raises and then gets reraised, its a pretty easy fold. The information he gained from raising makes his future decisions easier and saves him money, compared to having no idea where he stands since he just called over and over.

Now obviously there are other reasons for raising then to gain information, and obviously a benefit of a raise to "see where you are" is that sometimes you will win the hand right there. But in many cases (like the hand vint posted) you will gain information that will save you more money (the villians entire stack, in this case) then you would win if they all just folded. Information in poker is very valuable.

As for the hand, I don't mind the flop calls. If you are looking at this strictly as a drawing hand to the flush or the straight, you're getting the correct odds to call those bets. I think the bad play comes on the turn, where a raise is necesarry.

[piratepeaty]

I think the main point of raising for information is just that: you get information. Poker is a game of having more information then your opponents. This is why position is so important.

Consider the above hand. If Vinterriket raises and gets called, he has gained information, that his opponent probably has a better hand then he does. If he raises and then gets reraised, its a pretty easy fold. The information he gained from raising makes his future decisions easier and saves him money, compared to having no idea where he stands since he just called over and over.



Now obviously there are other reasons for raising then to gain information, and obviously a benefit of a raise to "see where you are" is that sometimes you will win the hand right there. But in many cases (like the hand vint posted) you will gain information that will save you more money (the villians entire stack, in this case) then you would win if they all just folded. Information in poker is very valuable.

As for the hand, I don't mind the flop calls. If you are looking at this strictly as a drawing hand to the flush or the straight, you're getting the correct odds to call those bets. I think the bad play comes on the turn, where a raise is necesarry.

Have you played much poker?

If he gets raised it doesn't mean he is beat. If he is called it doesn't mean he is beat. His opponent could be on a draw, or an idiot. The information is not reliable, so he is WASTING money by raising strictly for information.

Edit: we already know where we are in the hand.

[Dortmunder13]

Have you played much poker?

If he gets raised it doesn't mean he is beat. If he is called it doesn't mean he is beat. His opponent could be on a draw, or an idiot. The information is not reliable, so he is WASTING money by raising strictly for information.

You have to think about what cards make sense for the opponents to take these lines with, and then figure in a small possibility for some type of bluff or just terrible play.

What kind of hand would you need on this flop to reraise a pot-sized bet? How about to call one? How many of those hands are ahead of what hero has, and how many are behind?

I know for me, if I see a pot-sized raise on this board, I'm probably gonna fold if I don't at least have AQ or AJ, and in either of those cases I would probably reraise.

If I am on a draw, I certainly wouldn't raise a pot-sized bet here. I would fold most draws, unless I had a ridiculous amount of outs, or for some reason thought that my implied odds were very large. If this was limit then sure, raise a draw, but it isn't, so things are different.

Edit - what makes you think the opponent is unreliable? I didn't see a read in the original post. I generally assume people are decent players until I see them do something dumb, but its very possible this is incorrect. If the board were suited, I think putting opponent on a draw when they call a pot-sized bet makes more sense, but not on a board like this. There is a straight draw possibility, but would KT call that preflop raise? Maybe if it was suited?

[piratepeaty]

Have you played much poker?

If he gets raised it doesn't mean he is beat. If he is called it doesn't mean he is beat. His opponent could be on a draw, or an idiot. The information is not reliable, so he is WASTING money by raising strictly for information.

You have to think about what cards make sense for the opponents to take these lines with, and then figure in a small possibility for some type of bluff or just terrible play.

What kind of hand would you need on this flop to reraise a pot-sized bet? How about to call one? How many of those hands are ahead of what hero has, and how many are behind?

I know for me, if I see a pot-sized raise on this board, I'm probably gonna fold if I don't at least have AQ or AJ, and in either of those cases I would probably reraise.

If I am on a draw, I certainly wouldn't raise a pot-sized bet here. I would fold most draws, unless I had a ridiculous amount of outs, or for some reason thought that my implied odds were very large. If this was limit then sure, raise a draw, but it isn't, so things are different.

Again, have you played much? Have you ever heard of free card play? Draws get raised all the time, it is very profitable...

[Dortmunder13]

Again, have you played much? Have you ever heard of free card play? Draws get raised all the time, it is very profitable...

I have heard of the free card play. I have been playing poker for almost 3 years (not too long in the grand scheme of things, actually), although I don't really think that is very applicable to our discussion. I certainly wouldn't attempt it after a bet, then a raise. There is a good chance that one of those two players is going to bet the turn no matter what since both have shown strength, and it is very possible that both of them could. On top of that, are you going to simply assume that opponent is making a free card play? How do you know? You just said the opponent is unreliable in one of your earlier posts. What kind of opponent is unreliable, but also makes a free card play?

Yes, draws get raised all the time. I'm not arguing that. What I'm saying is a draw is probably not going to raise with a bet and a raise in front of it. Raising with a draw if there is a bet and a call in front of you (like LP did in this hand, actually, although I'm not sure why he only minraised, as that is not going to be very effective) makes much more sense, in my opinion.

[piratepeaty]

Again, have you played much? Have you ever heard of free card play? Draws get raised all the time, it is very profitable...

I have heard of the free card play. I have been playing poker for almost 3 years (not too long in the grand scheme of things, actually), although I don't really think that is very applicable to our discussion. I certainly wouldn't attempt it after a bet, then a raise. There is a good chance that one of those two players is going to bet the turn no matter what since both have shown strength, and it is very possible that both of them could. On top of that, are you going to simply assume that opponent is making a free card play? How do you know? You just said the opponent is unreliable in one of your earlier posts. What kind of opponent is unreliable, but also makes a free card play?

I didn't mean to sound rude. I never said the opponent was unreliable, I said the read is unreliable. I'm not assuming anything, my point is that raising for information will only yeild unreliable information. Therefore, it is a waste of money. There are much better reasons to raise.

[Dortmunder13]

I didn't mean to sound rude. I never said the opponent was unreliable, I said the read is unreliable. I'm not assuming anything, my point is that raising for information will only yeild unreliable information. Therefore, it is a waste of money. There are much better reasons to raise.

I agree with what you are saying here, most of the time. However, I still think that raising for information can be a very powerful play, in addition to the fact that you win the hands sometimes, and in some very specific cases you can gain information on your opponents that you can use later in the hand, or later against the same opponent.

I think in the hand above, hero should have raised to protect his hand, and not primarily for information, although information in this case is a nice bonus. Again, poker is a game of information, and that is why position is so important. As Harrington says in HoH, "It's bad to act first in a hand, because you have to act with no new information on your opponents. It's good to act last, because you get to see what your opponents have done, hence gaining information, before making a decision. Your position at the table, relative to the other players, is a hugely important feature of every hand..."

Raising for information is something I do to try and make future decisions easier, and save myself some money. Thats all I was trying to say. I hope it makes more sense this time.

[Warpe]

Raising for information:

Stack sizes:
UTG: $254.40
UTG+1: $93.65
CO: $100.25
Hero: $218.25
SB: $160.25
BB: $52.70

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with J J
UTG raises to $3.5, 2 folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: T 9 5 ($11, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $7, Hero raises to $14, BB folds, UTG raises to $35, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $21 returned to UTG.

[piratepeaty]

Raising for information:

Stack sizes:
UTG: $254.40
UTG+1: $93.65
CO: $100.25
Hero: $218.25
SB: $160.25
BB: $52.70

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with J J
UTG raises to $3.5, 2 folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: T 9 5 ($11, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $7, Hero raises to $14, BB folds, UTG raises to $35, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $21 returned to UTG.

You sure this isn't to protect your hand from a semi-bluff from a hand like AK?

[Vinterriket]

sigh. I think I played this a little better.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($13)
CO ($6.15)
Button ($14.90)
SB ($24.20)
BB ($19.55)
UTG ($31.40)
Hero ($19.50)
MP1 ($22.45)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A, K. MP2 posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, Hero raises to $1.5, 3 folds, Button calls $1.50, 2 folds.

Flop: ($3.60) 7, J, Q (2 players)
Hero bets $2, Button calls $2.

Turn: ($7.60) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $2, Button raises to $4, Hero calls $2.

Should of checked here methinks.

River: ($15.60) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $7.4 (All-In), Hero calls $7.40.

At this point I put him on AQ, QJ, KQ, dont think he would call a 5x raise preflop with a 7 in his hand. I check here to induce a push.

Final Pot: $30.40

Results in white below:
Hero has As Ks (two pair, kings and sevens).
Button has Ad 7h (three of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: Button wins $30.40.

grrrrrr

[Warpe]

Raising for information:

Stack sizes:
UTG: $254.40
UTG+1: $93.65
CO: $100.25
Hero: $218.25
SB: $160.25
BB: $52.70

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with J J
UTG raises to $3.5, 2 folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: T 9 5 ($11, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $7, Hero raises to $14, BB folds, UTG raises to $35, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $21 returned to UTG.

You sure this isn't to protect your hand from a semi-bluff from a hand like AK?

It's both. Question: "Am I beat?" Answer: "Yes"
I see your point, but the information gained from raising is just as important as any other consideration, and sometimes the only consideration, imo.

[piratepeaty]

Raising for information:

Stack sizes:
UTG: $254.40
UTG+1: $93.65
CO: $100.25
Hero: $218.25
SB: $160.25
BB: $52.70

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with J J
UTG raises to $3.5, 2 folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: T 9 5 ($11, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $7, Hero raises to $14, BB folds, UTG raises to $35, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $21 returned to UTG.

You sure this isn't to protect your hand from a semi-bluff from a hand like AK?

It's both. Question: "Am I beat?" Answer: "Yes"
I see your point, but the information gained from raising is just as important as any other consideration, and sometimes the only consideration, imo.

Those situations are rare. For example in this situation, him raising doesn't mean you are beat. Most of the time, it probably means he has an overpair. But he could also make this play with AK of diamonds.

Although I think this an easy fold. I'm not folding because i think I am beat, I am folding because he has made it too expensive to play this against his range. Obviously, the information is important, but I am not raising for that information. The opponent is under no obligation to give us reliable information.

[Warpe]

Those situations are rare. For example in this situation, him raising doesn't mean you are beat. Most of the time, it probably means he has an overpair. But he could also make this play with AK of diamonds.

Although I think this an easy fold. I'm not folding because i think I am beat, I am folding because he has made it too expensive to play this against his range. Obviously, the information is important, but I am not raising for that information. The opponent is under no obligation to give us reliable information.

I don't think these situations are rare at all, not in my experience anyway. If I am just raising to protect my hand, I'm doing more than minraising as I did here. But I suspect an overpair, so a minraise is the least expensive way for me to find out if my opponent is holding...he's going to reraise me if he is. He did and he was...KK.

Point being, my primary reason for raising in this case was for information, and the size of my raise was dictated by the reason I was making it. This is why I don't think you can dismiss "raising for information" out of hand so easily.

[piratepeaty]

Those situations are rare. For example in this situation, him raising doesn't mean you are beat. Most of the time, it probably means he has an overpair. But he could also make this play with AK of diamonds.

Although I think this an easy fold. I'm not folding because i think I am beat, I am folding because he has made it too expensive to play this against his range. Obviously, the information is important, but I am not raising for that information. The opponent is under no obligation to give us reliable information.

I don't think these situations are rare at all, not in my experience anyway. If I am just raising to protect my hand, I'm doing more than minraising as I did here. But I suspect an overpair, so a minraise is the least expensive way for me to find out if my opponent is holding...he's going to reraise me if he is. He did and he was...KK.

Point being, my primary reason for raising in this case was for information, and the size of my raise was dictated by the reason I was making it. This is why I don't think you can dismiss "raising for information" out of hand so easily.

This protects your hand from a bluff. That would be the primary reason for raising. I don't see how you don't see that.

If you just call, he may fire another bet on the turn with A high. Or, he may pair. You say you suspect an overpair. If you knew that for sure, you should just fold preflop or at the very least, on the flop to his bet. However, you raised? why? probably because you suspect a possible bluff. Therefore, you raise to protect from that bluff. He reraised, so he is probably serious about his hand and probably not bluffing. So you change gears, and realize you are most likely behind.

As you know, a min raise is usually enough to protect vs. overcards as most opponents will fold, if he calls with overcards, then you are getting value from the raise. So it definately protects against them.

Also, an overpair may just call here anyway, but... does the information you paid for tell you that? You would really have to know your opponent very well to know that his call means he has an overpair.

Alternatively, A strong flush draw may reraise (I've seen AND done it before, so don't dismiss it too quickly). So a reraise doesn't ALWAYS mean you are beat.

A bluff is also possible (though I admit, not as likely). A savy opponent may notice that when min raise, you are easy to push off a hand with a 3-bet (like in this example). As you said, if you were protecting your hand you would have chosen a different amount.

My point being, the information you are aquiring costs you money, and isn't that reliable. There are much better reasons to raise here. I would say the main one is to protect myself from throwing away the best hand.

[Vinterriket]

Does such a thing even exist as 'raising for only information'?

I think the information we get from our opponent as a result of the raise is always just a secondary benefit. I never raise purely for information if that was what was implied by me elsewhere in this post. All plays made by an opponent during the course of a hand give you information about their hands and themselves. The quality of this information is based on how tricky and savvy the opponent is, our ability to dissect certain types of information, and what the play was that the opponent made. People sometimes say they are 'betting for info' or 'seeing where they stand' but that just means they are going to make a play that will yield more information about their opponent. By betting or raising you are forcing the opponent to make a play: to fold, call, or raise and this is information. Every time we force an opponent to a decision information is obtained. Again, as said before, this information may not be reliable. But whenever a player bets or raises his intent surely must be something other than 'getting information' as a primary concern.

Raises can indicate alot of things as we all know: bluff, semi-bluff, defensive raise, value-raise, read-based raise, etc...etc...
Any time a player raises it is for one (or more) of those game-related reasons.

The only time a player really raises 'only for information' is when a player is totally clueless about poker.

[piratepeaty]

Vinterriket, I agree.

To your second AK hand, preflop is fine.

Flop is fine.

Turn bet is too small. I think it is ok to bet again here, if you think your opponent may drop a J or a weak Q, or if you think he is on a draw. However, you have to bet more. If you try $6 it leaves him with $5 behind. If he calls, the pot would be around $19. It would suck to lose this pot if you miss and he moves in on the river, so you may want to push the turn. It is a very aggressive play. In order for it to work, you have to know your opponent will fold Jacks and most queens. You also get value if he calls with a draw, he's making a big mistake that pays you off in the long run.

The other option is of course to check. Checking keeps the pot small, and lets you see how he reacts. It sucks to be OOP with a weak hand, and you will be OOP on the river. Against the type of player that calls a raise with a 7 preflop, I think this is obviously the better option. He's not folding a Jack here or a Queen, even to a push. If he called on the flop with a better hand, he is calling the turn. If he bets this turn, you would have to fold to any reasonable bet.