problems with loose fishy players

[DickieBets]

Hi,

I'm always hearing how great TAG play is in poker so I thought I'd give the 19 starting hands a try and play a tight aggressive style in .10/.25 NL at PS. I feel like a sitting duck ! I win a couple of small pots here and there , but there always seems to be one or two loose, (what I call fishy) players. I wouldnt characterize them as LAG. As soon as you raise preflop - they call. then they call your flop bet ! unless you hit the flop well, you have no idea where you are and they will bet as soon as you check ! How does a good tight player combat this !

Here is an example. :

Villain is in almost every pot !

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

UTG+1 =Villain ($33.40)
MP1 ($24)
Hero ($26.75)
CO ($23.95)
Button ($26.80)
SB ($25.70)
BB ($20.90)
UTG ($9.95)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q, A.
UTG calls $0.25,Villain calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.75, 3 folds, BB calls $1.50, UTG folds, Villain calls $1.50, MP1 calls $1.50.

Flop: ($7.35) K, 5, 5 (4 players)
BB checks, Villain checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $2, BB folds, Villain calls $2, MP1 folds.

Turn: ($11.35) 2 (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero checks.

River: ($11.35) 2 (2 players)
Villain bets $5.75, Hero calls $5.75.

Final Pot: $22.85

[jackvance]

My remarks:

1. With a hand like that where you're mostly going for TP-action, you need 1-2 to see the flop with you. More people means you have on average less of a chance to win. Your preflop raise is good, just wanna say that if a raise like that on this table frequently gets 3+ callers, raise more til it gets you 1-2.

2. Flop bet is a mistake. Patience my friend. You have nothing, so why throw money in the pot? If you want to bluff them out, you have to throw more. A bluff would probably not be the best idea here ofcourse, since there's 3 people and one of em is a confirmed calling station. But in this kind of situation, either throw 2/3-3/4 pot for a c-bet (bad idea here) or Check (what you should have done)

3. River.. why call this? All you have is high card Ace. If he has *anything*, a K, a 2, a 5, a small pp, you're out.

4. Don't even be fooled if you did happen to win with high card ace here, or in a similar situation. You'll blow WAY more money on stuff like this in the long run, even if you're up against a loose aggressive idiot. You just needlessly threw away $7 here.. so if you do this one more time, and then cash in $14 on a good hand and a good flop, you just broke even. If you had saved your money for those times that you had something to go on, then you'd be up $14.

[drmcboy]

if you know you're getting called on the flop, don't bet without a hand.

[DickieBets]

Thanks,

sounds like good advice.

Here's another hand with the same player :

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB =Villain ($43.95)
BB ($15.60)
Hero ($21.45)
UTG+1 ($27.95)
MP1 ($45.70)
MP2 ($17.10)
MP3 ($10.15)
CO ($44.45)
Button ($23.15)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J, J.
Hero raises to $1, UTG+1 calls $1, 1 fold, MP2 calls $1, 3 folds, Villain calls $0.90, 1 fold.

Flop: ($4.25) 8, 7, 6 (4 players)
Villain bets $2.5, Hero raises to $5, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Villain calls $2.50.

Turn: ($14.25) K (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero bets $5, Villain calls $5.

River: ($24.25) A (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $24.25

[jackvance]

1. Again 3 callers. Raise more. You need 1-2. If you get the same pot with less people in it, the only thing that changes if you throw more, is that you got a higher chance to win. Simple statistics

2. Doesn't look like he hit the straight, he woulda raised more if he was a Lagg. So either he got one pair (like A7, K8), or more likely he is chasing an 8-out straight with like A9, K9 in his hands. This means your reraise was insufficient.

He only has to pay $2.5 into a $14.25 pot. That's 17.5%. So he gets good odds to chase his straight here.

3. At the turn, an overcard shows up. This is dangerous, and exactly the reason why you need to force bad odds upon him for seeing the turn at your flop reraise. It is not too unlikely he has the K here. You bet around 1/3 of the pot. Seriously, what is that? If he's still on his straight draw with A5 or A9, you're not discouraging him. If he has a crappy hand that he can doubt (which you have beat) like K2, you're not throwing enough to weed him out either.

4. River. Another overcard. He probably has you beat by now. I put him on A9/A8/A7/A5/K9/K8/K7/K5. Or maybe even AQ/KQ (but I don't think so, he woulda bet the river with those). He was probably planning a check/raise if he had a good hand, or he simply wanted a showdown with a not-so-great hand, which most likely has you beat.

[Renton]

I used to hate loose unreadable players too. I just recently got into 100NL, and I am now having all of these revelations about how hard this game is without all the loose fishy players.

All you have to do is make a hand (TPTK or better) and value bet them dry.

[DickieBets]

Thanks very much for your input - it was very helpful !

Martin