25nl --------> 50nl

[Renton]

I am currently playing the 25nl on Party, and doing pretty well. I have been running about 8bb/100 over a fairly substantial number of hands (about 25k I think, don't got my numbers in from of me a.t.m.) My stats are fairly solid. My vpip is around 14%, pfr around 7%. W$@SD is like 52% and Went to S.D. is about 21%. My most profitable hands are AA, KK, and AK (QQ is my biggest loser, partially because of variance, but honestly I think I need to work on my QQ play).

I am currently rolled for 50nl, but I haven't moved up yet. My BR is right at 1500 now. My question: Is it time to move up? And if not, what is a good sign that it's time?

As I mentioned, my rate at 25nl is 8bb/100. I think my biggest leak is missing value from strong hands (not nut hands, I play those fine). I don't think I get enough value from vulnerable but strong hands like TPTK and T2P. Also I am multitabling to attain this number. I usually play between 4 and 6 tables at a time on party. I could probably increase this number if I played only 3 or 4 tables.

I told myself I wouldn't move up to 50nl until I was capable of running a consistent 12bb/100 game on the 25nl, but now I'm second guessing. I clearly have the roll to move up, and I feel as if I could do much better.

Also I am bonus whoring, and I could use the extra availability of soft tables on sites like Jetset and Riverbelle where the aquarium can be empty at times. It'd be nice to have those extra tables to choose from when trying to whore as quickly and effectively as possible.

Anyway's heres my plan, and I am posting this to get opinions from others. Thanks to the new party $300 bonus, this weeks gonna be a tour de force of 25nl for me. I will be playing approx. 10k hands to clear this bonus this week. I am gonna play 25nl for all these hands and then, assuming my ptbb/100 doesn't dip at all during this time, I am going to move up to 50nl, with a BR that will probably have around 2000 at that point.

Any thoughts? Tips? Suggestions?

[Bo G]

I didn't hear about any Party bonus. That is news to me. Good news but news none the less.

[Renton]

20% to $100 10x reload bonus
if you clear it in seven days then they give you another $100 (no deposit necessary) for 10x. Catch is you have to clear this 10x bonus in only three days. Then if you manage to do that, they offer you another $100 if you can clear it at 15x in three days.

A fairly difficult task. You basically have to either be freak with shitloads of free time or you have to play at least five tables.

[AHiltz]

Move up, dip your feet in the waters.

There are 3 scenarios:
1) you do well and stay there
2) you have a downswing and have to go back to 25NL to build the roll
3) You can't adjust to having more $$ at stack and move back to 25NL

At 50NL, open for $2. Don't expect the play to be that much better. Don't think of it as money, but rather as chips.

[jungy121]

when you say 8bb/100 does that mean you win 8x.25=2 dollars every 100 hands? and is vpip and pfr all pokertracker terms?

[BankItDrew]

Good luck to you and your 50NL quest!

I think you should move up when you are comfortable with both your bankroll and 25NL play. I'll be there shortly, I just want a 2% bankroll max. @ each table. This will help minimize my tilt because of lower bankroll swings. Don't be in any hurry at all, this is a long term thing for us, isn't it?

I think 8bb/100 hands is good enough to move up from any level to the next. Don't expect the quality in play to be much better either, just because of a higher buy-in. I think the bb/100 would decrease maybe 33% give or take, assuming you play your same game.

I think the biggest problem for players moving up is simply the $ amount attached to the blinds. If you think to yourself: "Instead of me betting this $20, I could be buying a 12-pack," you're doomed from the beggining. Think of chips as units, and get as many as you fucking can!

GL

[Renton]

when you say 8bb/100 does that mean you win 8x.25=2 dollars every 100 hands? and is vpip and pfr all pokertracker terms?

8bb/100= 8*(.25*2)=4.00 every 100 hands. bb stands for 'big bet' which is two big blinds.

vpip is voluntary put money in pot percentage

pfr is preflop raise percentage

[Renton]

I think the biggest problem for players moving up is simply the $ amount attached to the blinds. If you think to yourself: "Instead of me betting this $20, I could be buying a 12-pack," you're doomed from the beggining. Think of chips as units, and get as many as you fucking can!
GL

Thats not my problem at all. I just want to be sure that 8bb is beating 25nl 'enough' to move up.

[BankItDrew]

8bb/100 @ 25NL is good if you are content with winning 5-6bb/100 @ 50NL. Then 3-5bb/100 @ 100NL. And so on and so forth.

I think you should try to get this bb/100 @ 25NL higher than at least 12 before you move up. On one hand, you could try to dominate 25NL before jumping. On the other, your game will improve whenever you move up.

[Miffed22001]

if u beat 25nl and have 20 buy ins move up
period.

[Renton]

if u beat 25nl and have 20 buy ins move up
period.

I understand this. The question at hand is:

What constitutes "beating" 25nl?

8bb? 12bb?

There are people who can consistently maintain 15-25ptbb/100 at 25nl.

[Rabid Dog]

20% to $100 10x reload bonus
if you clear it in seven days then they give you another $100 (no deposit necessary) for 10x. Catch is you have to clear this 10x bonus in only three days. Then if you manage to do that, they offer you another $100 if you can clear it at 15x in three days.

A fairly difficult task. You basically have to either be freak with shitloads of free time or you have to play at least five tables.

Renton, you might check the T&C on this again. I could be wrong, but I thought you had 7 days to clear the 10x and then you were through. But if you cleared the 10x in 3 days then you were eligable to move on to level 2 and had 3 days to clear it to be elibable to move to level 3 which you had 3 days to clear also. Like I said I might be wrong on that though, I havent started the bonus yet.

Reload bonus only: 10x at 7 days and done.
Level one: 10x at 3 days and move to level 2
Level two: 15x at 3 days and move to level 3
Level three: 20x at 3 days and level 3 is done.

[Renton]

you may be right

no matter, I am already nearly done the first level.

[Rabid Dog]

Cool. You are a poker marathoner

[Renton]

Cool. You are a poker marathoner

nah

10k hands is only 27 hours if you play six tables.

[Rabid Dog]

Cool. You are a poker marathoner

nah

10k hands is only 27 hours if you play six tables.

Sounds like a marathon to me, you need to be in the poker Olympics

[SinkRox]

You're rolled for it... move up! Set some rules i.e. if i lose 3 or 4 buy-ins I go back to NL25 and more importantly asses my game/hands at NL50 and work out what went wrong.

The most important thing is to forget pride and move back down if you feel outskilled (unlikely) or playing scared, or down-swinging etc.

It generally takes me ~ 5-10hrs to get used to stacks and bet sizes when I move up.

[Renton]

You're rolled for it... move up! Set some rules i.e. if i lose 3 or 4 buy-ins I go back to NL25 and more importantly asses my game/hands at NL50 and work out what went wrong.

The most important thing is to forget pride and move back down if you feel outskilled (unlikely) or playing scared, or down-swinging etc.

It generally takes me ~ 5-10hrs to get used to stacks and bet sizes when I move up.

lol u said asses

[r8ed]

I know you are on a whoring campaign. Think about how much quicker you will clear bonuses at 50NL. Even if you break even, you are winning the free money quicker. If you are at 8bb/100 at 25NL, I don't see your bb/100 dropping that much if at all anyway. 16k.

[Renton]

I know you are on a whoring campaign. Think about how much quicker you will clear bonuses at 50NL. Even if you break even, you are winning the free money quicker. If you are at 8bb/100 at 25NL, I don't see your bb/100 dropping that much if at all anyway. 16k.

hehe i'ma tenth of the way there.

[jungy121]

You're rolled for it... move up! Set some rules i.e. if i lose 3 or 4 buy-ins I go back to NL25 and more importantly asses my game/hands at NL50 and work out what went wrong.

The most important thing is to forget pride and move back down if you feel outskilled (unlikely) or playing scared, or down-swinging etc.

It generally takes me ~ 5-10hrs to get used to stacks and bet sizes when I move up.

lol u said asses

LOL!

[Irisheyes]

Your already over-rolled for 50NL, I'd nearly say move straight to 100NL when you get to $2500. I've never played much party but lots of people say its easier then 50nl?

[Pelion]

and is vpip and pfr all pokertracker terms?

They are pokertracker terms but you can estimate them without pokertracker. VP$IP means "Volentarily Put $ in Pot". It is the percentage of times somebody puts money into the pot not including blinds. It is almost (but not quite) the same as percentage of flops seen.

PFR means preflop raise percentage.

[Renton]

Move up, dip your feet in the waters.

There are 3 scenarios:
1) you do well and stay there
2) you have a downswing and have to go back to 25NL to build the roll
3) You can't adjust to having more $$ at stack and move back to 25NL

At 50NL, open for $2. Don't expect the play to be that much better. Don't think of it as money, but rather as chips.

I just put in my first session, and its going very well. I only put in 230 hands tho. I ran 36.23ptbb/100

Heres a classic of comedy that I experienced.

***** Hand History for Game 3734649879 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, March 13, 18:42:11 ET 2006
Table Table 98209 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: ThsIsTheYear ( $32.90 )
Seat 2: notswift ( $60.72 )
Seat 7: hanky2000 ( $32.63 )
Seat 8: dobosz3 ( $62.51 )
Seat 4: Renton555 ( $55.14 )
Seat 3: Perrapurr ( $30.90 )
Seat 6: SnGjimmyfin ( $29.60 )
Seat 9: russhall ( $49.75 )
Seat 5: atherm ( $50 )
Seat 10: pytelc ( $49.50 )
dobosz3 posts small blind [$0.25].
russhall posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Kd Jd ]
pytelc folds.
>You have options at Table 96108 Table!.
ThsIsTheYear folds.
notswift folds.
Perrapurr folds.
Renton555 raises [$2].
>You have options at Table 96108 Table!.
atherm folds.
SnGjimmyfin folds.
hanky2000 folds.
dobosz3 folds.
russhall calls [$1.50].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, 7d, 7h ]
russhall checks.
Renton555 bets [$4].
russhall calls [$4].
>You have options at Table 96108 Table!.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kc ]
russhall checks.
Renton555 bets [$11].
>You have options at Table 98534 Table!.
russhall calls [$11].
** Dealing River ** [ 3h ]
russhall checks.
Renton555 bets [$15].
russhall calls [$15].
Renton555 shows [ Kd, Jd ] two pairs, kings and jacks.
>You have options at Table 98716 (No DP) Table!.
russhall shows [ Ks, As ] two pairs, kings and sevens.
Renton555 wins $61.25 from the main pot with two pairs, kings and jacks.
>You have options at Table 98534 Table!.

Here's an excerpt of the dialog after the hand.



russhall: r u serious?
russhall: OH MY GOD
russhall: thats stupid man
russhall: jack king beats ace king
russhall: come on
russhall: thats ridiculous
Renton555: hehe
russhall: this site is sooo f'n rigged
russhall: he prolly has a card scanner knowing i had the king with ace
russhall: CHEATER AND YOUR REPORTED
russhall: Renton hope u had fun playing your last day on party poker
Renton555: heh
Renton555: it was great
russhall: your horrible man
russhall: awful
russhall: u raise preflop with king jack
russhall: verse ace king
russhall: haha
russhall: your very bad at poker
Renton555: kiss the rings bit.ch
russhall: your an online idiot
russhall: prolly a XXXXXX
russhall: reggin
russhall: ur black
russhall: stay the minority
russhall: raise with king jack again please

[Fnord]

Thank you, drive through.

[Rabid Dog]

LOL, its always hilarious how they blame you for their loss and tell you how bad you are when you beat them.

[Fnord]

Make sure he reloads.

[r8ed]

Wow. That guy went ballistic over nothing. It's not like you chased a gutshot and hit. There was some maniac on my tables the other night that let loose hardcore every time somebody reraised him (even though he was raising with garbage). So, every time he raised somebody would oblige - it's was hilarious.


Then he took my stack.

[Lukie]

Renton, I only read your initial post, but it sounds like you are long over-due for a move up. It seems like you are overrolled (not a bad thing), easily outplay the NL25 field, and mentally ready to move up.

Also, maintaining a 12ptbb/100 winrate is so far beyond murdering a game it's just a spec on the radar. 8ptbb/100 is killing a game and you should be more then confident in moving up. If you have any questions or need any help or whatever.. just hit me up on AIM.

[Renton]

Renton, I only read your initial post, but it sounds like you are long over-due for a move up. It seems like you are overrolled (not a bad thing), easily outplay the NL25 field, and mentally ready to move up.

Also, maintaining a 12ptbb/100 winrate is so far beyond murdering a game it's just a spec on the radar. 8ptbb/100 is killing a game and you should be more then confident in moving up. If you have any questions or need any help or whatever.. just hit me up on AIM.

I know its positive variance and all, but here's first session results:

Hands: 880
MT Ratio: 4.03
BB/100: 21.38

Won/Hr: $52.63
Total: $ 188.13

NL50 kicks ass. I actually have folding equity, yet people still call down with aces and seven kicker.

[SinkRox]

You'll like this...

Texas Hold'em NL50 (real money), hand #229,935,102
Table jasocrime1´s HE, 11 Mar 2006 9:49 PM ET

Seat 3: Winger31 ($25.25 in chips)
Seat 4: deets4314 ($43.65 in chips)
Seat 9: batman2403 ($75.20 in chips)
Seat 10: sinkrox1 [ 7D,5C ] ($48.85 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
Winger31 posts blind ($0.25), deets4314 posts blind ($0.50).

PRE-FLOP
batman2403 folds, sinkrox1 bets $2, Winger31 folds, deets4314 bets $3, sinkrox1 calls $1.50.

FLOP [board cards KD,8S,9S ]
deets4314 checks, sinkrox1 bets $4, deets4314 calls $4.

TURN [board cards KD,8S,9S,3S ]
deets4314 checks, sinkrox1 bets $8, deets4314 calls $8.

RIVER [board cards KD,8S,9S,3S,6H ]
deets4314 checks, sinkrox1 bets $10, deets4314 calls $10.

SHOWDOWN
sinkrox1 shows a straight [ 7D,5C ]
deets4314 mucks cards [ AC, KD ]
sinkrox1 wins $50.75.

deets4314: Jesus Christ!?
sinkrox: running gutshots baby

[Miffed22001]

if you beat a game over 15k hands and are rolled to move up then move up imo
Once you reach 100nl i would move to a bankroll that is 30buy ins not 20 and then for each subsequent level add 10 buy ins on top so you go to 200nl with a 6k roll and 400 with a 12-16k roll.
I say this because i think by the time you reach 200nl or 400nl you should be playing an extensive range of mtts on top of ring games.

[Fnord]

I say this because i think by the time you reach 200nl or 400nl you should be playing an extensive range of mtts on top of ring games.

You so silly.

[AntsAttack]

I read the thread on BR management, if someone wouldn't mind, if i had a 50 dollar bankroll, and used the 50 x %5 for my daily play, what would be a good stakes table to play at? are there ratios for what stakes to play comparing to your BR?
thanks

[Renton]

5nl and even thats pushing it.

[Lukie]

Miffed, I'm curious to why you say what Fnord quoted?

Don't get me wrong, I used to be a winning tournament player when I played them much more frequently, I've read both HOH books, studied different push/fold situations somewhat in-depth, and I feel I could still compete on a reasonably high level in a field of quality players, but.. why should a middlish-high stakes player be required to play in many MTT's on top of ring games?

Ring baby.. that's what it's all about.

[dpe8598]

Renton is right as far as bank roll management for a serious player, but it also depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Do you want to be risky? Do you care if you drop your roll in one hand. Some don't and if that is you, than more power to you. Go ahead and play 25/50 cent. Otherwise, if you want to really make that 50 bux last and grow you will have to start off at the lowest limit that your site offers. It just depends on what you want.

[SinkRox]

Miffed, I'm curious to why you say what Fnord quoted?
,,...
Ring baby.. that's what it's all about.

Yeh miff u cant assume most cash players are also mtt'ers.

I f'kin love ring, I could never go back to SnGs where one bad beat whipes you from the tourny and you dont get to reload and play the egg some more. And mtts? Well im inexperienced, Ive had some freeroll final tables and won a 70-runner live mtt but I can only ever see myself playing them for fun really. (....i feel they'll be too much varience and have rediculously long term profitablilty.)

[Renton]

Do you want to be risky? Do you care if you drop your roll in one hand. Some don't and if that is you, than more power to you. Go ahead and play 25/50 cent.

...

I don't agree. I don't care how much of a taste for risk you have, or how good of a player you are, putting your whole bankroll on the table is never a good idea. You may as well be playing the lottery.

Its like agreeing to a 3:2 payoff for flipping heads on a coin, only catch is you have to flip the coin 150 times, and its double or nothing with each flip. You are getting a tremendously +EV deal, but the chances are astronomically low that you'll get lucky enough to flip heads on a coin 150 consecutive times.

[SinkRox]

Do you want to be risky? Do you care if you drop your roll in one hand. Some don't and if that is you, than more power to you. Go ahead and play 25/50 cent.

...

I don't agree. I don't care how much of a taste for risk you have, or how good of a player you are, putting your whole bankroll on the table is never a good idea. You may as well be playing the lottery.

Its like agreeing to a 3:2 payoff for flipping heads on a coin, only catch is you have to flip the coin 150 times, and its double or nothing with each flip. You are getting a tremendously +EV deal, but the chances are astronomically low that you'll get lucky enough to flip heads on a coin 150 consecutive times.

yeh agreeed... on the subject of lottery... what i LOVE about poker is that its the type of gambling with the most contorl..

[johnny_fish]

Stop wasting time. Play 10K hands at 50NL, then move up to 100NL. Move down to 50NL if BR<1500. Move up to 200NL at 4K (should take you 4-6 weeks to reach that).

[Renton]

I am running ridiculously good so far.

Far better than I deserve. For the first 1200 hands of NL50 I have run 29.76bb/100. So basically, I have made almost as much in 1200 hands as I made at 25nl in 8k hands.

[johnny_fish]

You'll probably never play 25NL again.

[bdawg56kg]

Renton, good job, and I hope you continue to run hot.

if you beat a game over 15k hands and are rolled to move up then move up imo
Once you reach 100nl i would move to a bankroll that is 30buy ins not 20 and then for each subsequent level add 10 buy ins on top so you go to 200nl with a 6k roll and 400 with a 12-16k roll.
I say this because i think by the time you reach 200nl or 400nl you should be playing an extensive range of mtts on top of ring games.

Miffed, I think this is great advice for BR management. Can you explain why 200-400NL'ers should play lots of MTT's. I hardly ever play MTTs (mainly a time issue), but maybe you think more MTT's will improve your ring game, and vice versa? Explain please.

[Renton]

I think he means that once you keep going up and up and the bb/100 keeps going down because the competition is so fierce, that the only way you can make more money than your making, is to make big mtt cashes.

[Miffed22001]

whoa!
I wasnt saying all ring game players SHOULD play many more mtts, i was suggesting that with a br of over say 3k or more likely 5k, you should be likely (or at least i would hope!) to be considering playing a number of mtts as a stand-aside to ring games. Afterall, with a 5k roll are u not tempted to enter the 10r+a or 50FO on stars etc. These offer large bankroll increases and i would add also improve the vastness of your game. Its ok to be just a ring game player, ostensibly we have such players, i just expected players with bigger br's to be dabbling in such stuff. Also, as renton noted, yes games are beatable but progress isnt so easy at 200nl as 10nl i would guess so mtts offer a br boost etc.
I was be no means saying you have to! Being a cash game player only is cool. Gosh!

[salsa4ever]

whoa!
i was suggesting that with a br of over say 3k or more likely 5k, you should be likely (or at least i would hope!) to be considering playing a number of mtts as a stand-aside to ring games. Afterall, with a 5k roll are u not tempted to enter the 10r+a or 50FO on stars etc.

My guess is that you're factually mistaken. I personally have no interest of playing an MTT any time soon. Why would I want to do that?

For it's variance, i'm not increasing my win-rate per hour by enough. The time it takes to play MTTs is long. If i'm going to increase my variance, i want to increase my +EV. I'd move up from 2/4 up to 3/6 or something.

In my opinion, MTTs are +variance and -(expected return/time). It is therefore irrational to force yourself to learn a new skill (playing MTTs is a different skill to ring).

I think you'll find that a majority of successful ring game players don't, and don't intend, to play MTTs. Not trying to slam your opinion or anything, and I don't think it's that consequential... but i think it's an interesting topic. I also don't know for sure. But it would take some clear evidence to persuade me.

[boost]

why is everyone saying "youve got 30 buyins for 50nl, MOVE UP!" ... Im not saying its wrong to move up, but I dont think its crazy to wait til you have 40 or 50 buyins. It all depends on what you are trying to do, but even so, in most cases 20 just doesnt seem like neough to me...

[biondino]

I will move up when I am consistently good enough at a certain level. If I play a level and make 2BB/100 but have lots of bad sessions, struggle with tilt or just plain don't feel able to deal with the challenge of a higher level, I'm not moving up.

Yrs,
Mark ($2,000+ BR and barely dipping his toes in $50NL)

[DogOnMySide]

Do you think it would be a useful addition to FTR if i knocked together a webpage with a little JavaScript "Bankroll Calculator" app...

I'm imagining something like....
you specify starting variables such as
i want to play Limit / No Limit
Table buyin is... 25/50/100 whatever
I would be playing 1/2/3/4/5/6+ tables at a time
I am risk-taking/normal/risk-averse/curious george

and then you press "GO!" and it says "you should have a bankroll of approximately $23423" or whatever

and then a second bit where it does it the other way round - you say
I have x dollah
i like to gamb00l
i prefer limit/no limit
my mother is fat/thin/ugly

and it says "you should be playing $5 limit" or "you should be playing $100 NL or $55 SnGs" or "play MTT's and tell your mom to go jogging"

see what i am rambling about? THere are SO many BR management discussion on FTR and it might help some newcomers...

I might give it a go anyway, just for shitsngiggles

[boost]

you can make it, but the problem is there are no definitive br rules. Everyone has thier opinion. The major two are % of br spent a day, and #of buyins for that level. Some people like to combine both of these. So I dont really see how useful the calculator would be. But yah maybe it will give newbs a bit of insight on br management.

[vegascoop]

My vpip is around 14%, pfr around 7%. W$@SD is like 52% and Went to S.D. is about 21%.

What's your aggression factor on flop and turn (only if you don't mind sharing)?

I'm similar at about 18 vpip and 6pfr. Post flop seems to be more of a target rich environment for my improvement.

[Renton]

My vpip is around 14%, pfr around 7%. W$@SD is like 52% and Went to S.D. is about 21%.

What's your aggression factor on flop and turn (only if you don't mind sharing)?

I'm similar at about 18 vpip and 6pfr. Post flop seems to be more of a target rich environment for my improvement.

Current stats:

Games: 25nl and 50nl on party

Hands: 17156

VPIP: 13.76%
VPSB: 26.09%

WR: 7.67ptbb/100
Amount won: $916.67

W$WSF: 30.67%
W$@SD: 52.17%

PFR: 6.28%

Aggression factor:

PF: 0.73
Flop: 2.56
Turn: 1.45
River: 1.95

[samsonite2100]

Dog--I think a bankroll calculator is a fucking great idea. As boost said, there's no hard and fast rules about when to move up, etc, but surely there are rough consensus guidelines--I.e. don't move a level up in Sngs unless you have 25 buyins.

I think it would be really helpful for newcomers and also a cool addition to the site.

[johnny_fish]

My vpip is around 14%, pfr around 7%. W$@SD is like 52% and Went to S.D. is about 21%.

What's your aggression factor on flop and turn (only if you don't mind sharing)?

I'm similar at about 18 vpip and 6pfr. Post flop seems to be more of a target rich environment for my improvement.

Current stats:

Games: 25nl and 50nl on party

Hands: 17156

VPIP: 13.76%
VPSB: 26.09%

WR: 7.67ptbb/100
Amount won: $916.67

W$WSF: 30.67%
W$@SD: 52.17%

PFR: 6.28%

Aggression factor:

PF: 0.73
Flop: 2.56
Turn: 1.45
River: 1.95

My stats when I played 20-50-100NL were pretty similar. The only strange thing I noticed is my 45% W$WSF at 20NL and 50NL. It's probably caused by excessive cbetting My AF at the flop is a bit higher too (2.9); at the river a bit lower (1.4). WSD=21%..

I'm starting to think I'm overaggressive at the flop.. W$WSF at 100NL is still 38%, at 200NL 42%, 400NL even 45% (16/7.5 over 8K hands). But the winrate drops from 3.3 to 1.0 and -.4.

Is 45% W$WSF too high? Should I give drawing hands slightly better (but still incorrect) odds? Another cause of a high W$WSF is stealing a lot of small pots..

[Renton]

well, tight play also reigns as you get higher in levels. That's partially responsible for your high number.

[Pelion]

Do you just play small pairs for sets or do you try and fight cbets on low card flops?

[Renton]

Do you just play small pairs for sets or do you try and fight cbets on low card flops?

When multiway raised pots, I generally dump missed pairs. In headsup raised pots I look to make plays like the following, which help me get full value from my pairs.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP3 ($52.88)
Hero ($50)
Button ($48.26)
SB ($210.97)
BB ($46.50)
UTG ($46.25)
UTG+1 ($50.59)
UTG+2 ($49.90)
MP1 ($53)
MP2 ($26.15)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6, 6. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
5 folds, MP3 raises to $2, Hero calls $2, 1 fold, SB (poster) calls $1.75, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($8) 3, 2, 9 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets $4, SB calls $4, BB folds, MP3 folds.

Turn: ($16) 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($16) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $6.99, Hero calls $6.99.

Final Pot: $29.98

Villain showed AKs

[Renton]

And this one, which more pertains to your question. I don't have any hands right off that show me picking off c-bets, because I am at work and don't have my PT console up. Generally, I just call the c-bet if I think its a c-bet (raising is generally too expensive). If he bets out again on the turn I am more compelled to lay down.



Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP3 ($51.65)
CO ($49.50)
Hero ($74.07)
SB ($44.20)
BB ($54.60)
UTG ($48)
UTG+1 ($70.35)
UTG+2 ($50.42)
MP1 ($53.90)
MP2 ($44.45)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, 5. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
7 folds, Hero raises to $1.5, 1 fold, BB calls $1.

Flop: ($3.25) 9, 7, 9 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2.5, BB calls $2.50.

Turn: ($8.25) 4 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($8.25) 8 (2 players)
BB bets $5, Hero calls $5.

Final Pot: $18.25

[johnny_fish]

well, tight play also reigns as you get higher in levels. That's partially responsible for your high number.

VP$P/PFR is about the same (I'm slightly looser), yet W$WSF is significantly (not caused by variance? 20K hands..) higher.

[jackvance]

Just out of curiosity Renton, how different is the game (playstyles) if you compare 10NL with 25NL and 50NL? Does everyone become tighter and tighter? Is it like a totally different game you have to learn when you move up a stake?

[Renton]

25nl is easier than 10nl. I don't know why, but it just was for me. Implied odds are better at 25, because you don't have to raise 8bb preflop to narrow the field.

50nl is easier and harder than 25nl in different ways. Its easier in the respect that bluffing is profitable. You have no folding equity at 10nl and 25nl like you do in 50nl. However, villains are smart enough to laydown top pair at 50nl. They still can't laydown TPTK tho. I guess thats where 100nl comes in

[jackvance]

The game becoming easier at 25NL would be great lol, I just hope I won't need a really long time to adjust to the changes. (not that'll be moving up in the near future but still) But not too sure what you mean by folding equity at 50NL though..

btw nice stats you posted a bit up. I've used them as a guideline towards planning what I want to be able to achieve in the months to come, something to work towards. According to my calculations, if I can get to 5BB/100 at 50NL in 6 months from now, at 4 hours per day, 3 tables, I can make along the lines of €1500 per month. Dunno if that's realistic but I hope so

[Renton]

But not too sure what you mean by folding equity at 50NL though.

Folding equity is basically the chance that your opponent will fold a better hand.

Ex. If you have a lesser hand than your opponent, but there are three spades on the board, then you can bluff him off his better, but mediocre hand. The pot has $100 in it. Say your bet is $25, and you estimate there's a 50% chance he will fold. That means your folding equity is 50%, and this play is profitable, because you are paying $25 to win $50 on average.