Here's a situation...

[Lukie]

This hand isn't real, and the idea came from a 2p2 thread.

NL200 full ring.

BB has $1,000. SB has $500. Hero covers. This trio is very solid and has logged many hands together. All are tight multi-tablers, and let's commend hero on his excellent seat selection. Steals have a 90%+ success rate from this seat.

Hero opens OTB $8 with Ad Jd. 3 to the flop. $24.

Flop: Kd Jc Ts

Checks through. They should be suspicious.

Turn: Qd

SB leads $20. BB makes it $70. Hero makes it $1,000...

obvious right?

[underminedsk]

yes get it in while everyone still just has the nut straight with no flush possiblity.

[Warpe]

The logic being that this will be interpreted as a steal attempt and will therefore induce a call?

[Lukie]

yes get it in while everyone still just has the nut straight with no flush possiblity.

yes

The logic being that this will be interpreted as a steal attempt and will therefore induce a call?

A steal here is blatantly terrible. And that's an understatement.

The logic being that it's possible that two other players also have the nuts and aren't going anywhere. You have the nuts with an even nuttier redraw, a situation that comes up routinely in omaha but rarely in hold'em.

[Pelion]

hooray for the freeroll.

[bdawg56kg]

Freeroll baby!!! The real question is, if you're BB and have the ace, is it correct/+EV to call here?

If effective stacks are 10k, then I'm not so sure pushing turn is a better move than say raising to 2-3k. Hrmmmm...

[sejje]

This is just a sweet situation. You can't lose, and you can win 1500 20% of the time.

I'd definitely get it all in here where they can't really fold...if the diamond comes they could find a fold.

As far as the BB folding? Maybe it's correct, but I don't think he could do it.

I guess you could lose to a boat, but I don't think they're terrible enough to get the money in with a set or 2 pair here.

[nutsinho]

I am keenly aware of this type of situation when it occurs and all solid 200NL+ players should be aware as well. Bumping it up to $250-300 is probably the best play against good players.

[johnny_fish]

You should try to induce a mistake of a set. Raise to 300.

edit: slightly different situation (the Rippy is the nuts )

** Game ID 713690797 starting - 2006-03-09 01:00:39
** No Frontiers [Hold 'em] (2.00|4.00 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- jodezza sitting in seat 1 with $142.00
- Mofflowis sitting in seat 2 with $410.20
- johnny291281 sitting in seat 3 with $421.00 [Dealer]
- letme sitting in seat 4 with $262.00 [Sitting out]
- Weelay sitting in seat 5 with $322.90
- HighHeat sitting in seat 6 with $426.60
- Given sitting in seat 7 with $400.00
- Awebberfan sitting in seat 8 with $427.70
- GETM sitting in seat 9 with $400.00 [Sitting out]
- jj71hh sitting in seat 10 with $448.10

Weelay posted the small blind - $2.00
HighHeat posted the big blind - $4.00
** Dealing card to johnny291281: Ace of Spades, 4 of Spades
Given folded
Awebberfan called - $4.00
jj71hh folded
jodezza folded
Mofflowis folded
johnny291281 called - $4.00
Weelay called - $4.00
HighHeat checked

** Dealing the flop: 6 of Hearts, 3 of Spades, 5 of Hearts
Weelay checked
HighHeat checked
Awebberfan bet - $8.00
johnny291281 called - $8.00
Weelay called - $8.00
HighHeat called - $8.00

** Dealing the turn: 2 of Spades
Weelay checked
HighHeat bet - $44.00
Awebberfan folded
johnny291281 called - $44.00
Weelay raised - $132.00
HighHeat went all-in - $374.60
johnny291281 went all-in - $365.00
Weelay went all-in - $180.90
Weelay shows: 4 of Hearts, 5 of Diamonds
HighHeat shows: Jack of Spades, 4 of Clubs

** Dealing the river: Jack of Hearts
johnny291281 wins $327.90 from the main pot
johnny291281 wins $424.00 from side pot 1
Weelay wins $327.90 from the main pot
HighHeat wins $327.90 from the main pot
HighHeat wins $424.00 from side pot 1

End of game 713690797

[r8ed]

An option:
Raise it $400 (under SB's stack) so the SB pushes. BB will call or push (or fold?). If BB calls, you put him all-in as he's partially pot committed. However, this may be an obvious play as I'm sure those opps know what you are doing and if they don't hold the nut straight, they may let it go. Pushing may be better because it looks like you don't want a call.

[arkana]

An option:
Raise it $400 (under SB's stack) so the SB pushes. BB will call or push (or fold?). If BB calls, you put him all-in as he's partially pot committed. However, this may be an obvious play as I'm sure those opps know what you are doing and if they don't hold the nut straight, they may let it go. Pushing may be better because it looks like you don't want a call.

I agree with raising less, very few solid players will call off 500bbs there without really thinking it through (and realising what you are up to).

[Renton]

villain calls with KK

board pairs on the river.

*Edited for 25nl*

[swiggidy]

What is the max rake for 200NL. If it's 5% -> $5 I guess it's not an issue, but if it's bigger does that affect your decision?

[Renton]

typically 3 bucks. That wouldn't be much of a factor in this case since you rake in 1500 every 1 in 5 cases (whereas the total rake over all five cases would be about 15 bucks)

[Fnord]

Easy push, you have the nuts with a freeroll. Very few players are aware enough to think they're being freerolled not to push here as Ax is gonna insta-call.

[Renton]

Very few players are aware enough to think they're being freerolled not to push here as Ax is gonna insta-call.

Are you saying you'd lay down to a push here, if you were villain?

[nutsinho]

Very few players are aware enough to think they're being freerolled not to push here as Ax is gonna insta-call.

Are you saying you'd lay down to a push here, if you were villain?

It's such a fucking obvious laydown against a solid player...

[Renton]

Very few players are aware enough to think they're being freerolled not to push here as Ax is gonna insta-call.

Are you saying you'd lay down to a push here, if you were villain?

It's such a fucking obvious laydown against a solid player...

Given the tiny pot, yes I can see laying this down. But if I have a substantial amount of my stack invested in the pot and a situation like this arises, I cannot ever see laying this down.

[Fnord]

Very few players are aware enough to think they're being freerolled not to push here as Ax is gonna insta-call.

Are you saying you'd lay down to a push here, if you were villain?

It's such a fucking obvious laydown against a solid player...

Sure, when thinking players don't have money involved and all of the time in the world to make a decision. In real-time, almost everyone in any game I've played in makes that call.

[poskid_1982]

Renton

Given the tiny pot, yes I can see laying this down. But if I have a substantial amount of my stack invested in the pot and a situation like this arises, I cannot ever see laying this down.

C0rrect Renton...I think that the amount invested must be thought about before you make that call. But if it's like this hand where your villain pushes that many bb's at you if your villain is solid calling could be a huge mistake. Laying this down is situational...Almost entirely dependant upon stack sizes. But I also feel that when the stacks arent exceedingly large comparatively then the mistake becomes smaller and therefore the risk manageable.

PK

[r8ed]

Very few players are aware enough to think they're being freerolled not to push here as Ax is gonna insta-call.

Are you saying you'd lay down to a push here, if you were villain?

It's such a fucking obvious laydown against a solid player...

Sure, when thinking players don't have money involved and all of the time in the world to make a decision. In real-time, almost everyone in any game I've played in makes that call.

If both guys have an ace. What if one of these guys has a set or two pair? Are they calling an all-in? That's why I suggested the alternative.

But pushing is probably the best still because it looks more desperate than calculated.

[Miffed22001]

i like to push here just to make sure i get the hand counted for rake and my bonus whoring :P

[Les_Worm]

This is just a sweet situation. You can't lose

You could lose. Its not very likely at all but its possible. A donk call w/ a set and the board pairing would make you cry. I know these players weren't classified as "donks" but just remember you are not invincible here. I'm definately getting all my chips in here everytime.

[Iconoclastic]

Against Tight players, this is optimal. Against looser players who will call without odds with two pair or set you should raise to as much as you think they'll call while giving them bad odds. You must also get away on the River if it pairs.