BR Mgmnt question?

[Chopper]

This may be better in NL or Online, but I would like to ask a question about BR Mgmnt. Let me run a strategy by you guys and please critique where I could go wrong. Or maybe this works well and someine adopts it for themselves. Feel free to add what you do as well. Thanks in advance.

I've read to carry a certain amount of buy-ins, BB's, $'s in your BR. I've also read to avoid moving up in limits until your roll is big enough to take the swings, BUT HOW MUCH AND WHEN DO YOU WITHDRAWL MONEY FOR INCOME?

I read somewhere to, at the end of the day, save 10% of winnings separate from your BR and before long you have a few hundred dollars. That sounds good, but at my limits($25NL), it won't add up yet.

It hit me in the shower,

1) Build my roll to 1000-1500(currently $525) ASAP, using whatever means possible...bonuses, winnings, etc.

2)Once I can play at $100NL, I know you need 2000-3000 dollars, see minimum 7500 hands to be sure I am beating the game. And, then, every week take off profit above $1500, bonuses and all.

OR

1) Build roll to 1000+.

2) At end of week, take 20%-50% above 1500 only. This would allow me to keep a small portion of winnings and still build BR further for higher levels.

The second one is the more cautious appraoach, but I want to supplement income w/ $500+ a month eventually. And I need to learn how to take some winnings without having to move down levels.

Any thoughts/articles would be appreciated.

The only problem I can see is that it seems you're playing $100 NL with $1500? That's simply not enough to handle the swings if you're multitabling (which I assume you will be given the number of hands you want to play), you're looking more in the region of $2500+ (definitely $3000+ if you're quadding).

[swiggidy]

In your first example, how are you getting from 1000-1500 to 2000-3000. Shouldn't step 1 be "Build my roll to 2000-3000".

[Irisheyes]

The only problem I can see is that it seems you're playing $100 NL with $1500? That's simply not enough to handle the swings if you're multitabling (which I assume you will be given the number of hands you want to play), you're looking more in the region of $2500+ (definitely $3000+ if you're quadding).

I think thats a bit exaggerated perhaps. I suppose it depends, if you've played there before and know you can beat 100nl with a low variance game then 2k is enough I think, even for quadding. If you're new to 100nl then maybe stick to 2 tables for a while and see how that goes.

[Irisheyes]

And Chopper if you are trying to hit such long term aims then I can see perhaps some severe tilt when you hit your first 6 buy-in swing. Perhaps just set some "I will play consistently well" goals.

And don't withdraw at all untill you are beating 100nl consistently.

[Chopper]

no offense guys, but in my post i wrote my level was $25NL currently. you are assuming i play at $100. i said i would like to work my way up there. also, i know the standard is 20-30 buy-ins, but anything i've read suggests the skill below $200 is so bad you can get by on less than 30 buy-ins if you can beat the game consistently. i'm not there yet, but i beat $25 rather easily(i know the players are not as bad at $100).

please don't mistake me for arrogant, as this is not my intent. i was posing a hypothetical situation about when and how much to peel off a bankroll.

i think the answer is to avoid withdrawing any money until you are sufficiently "rolled" to play at a level you are comfortable with. and when you are there, pull profit only(duh).

what i was asking is do you pull all of your profit each month, assumig you have one? or do you pull a % of profit and continue to build the bankroll to even more comfortable levels. and that i know is a matter of personal preference, too...

but i was asking for SPECIFIC examples of what people have done in the past with their own money.

any help there would be appreciated.

p.s. i've had the 6 buy-in downswing and it scared the crap out of me...lol

[salsa4ever]

if you can halp it at all, don't withdraw.

when you get to a stage where 2% of your bankroll is a fair bit of money, then you can withdraw 2% at a time. So that would be when your bankroll hits $10,000 or something.

It's good for your poker game if you can see what your making from it, and you keep poker and non-poker as separate as you can. That doesn't mean you can't "reward" yourself by making the odd withdrawal. But then, if you need extrinsic reward i.e. winning isn't enough for you, then poker might not be for you anyway.

Focus on winning, and the money will look after itself

[Silly String]

So Salsa, are you ever going to withdrawl any money? You sound like you just want to build a roll. Chopper's goal is to sustain a supplemental income from poker. And why 2%? That number sounds rather arbitrary?

I suggest once you get to a level you are comfortable with the income you can generate you begin to take some profits. I would maintain proper bankroll management rules before any withdrawls. i.e. 20-30 buyins. I personally would keep $2500 as a bankroll before attempting to withdrawl. I play a TAG style, but I am willing to push small edges, and I have a few leaks, which increases my varience. Once I have a $2500 bankroll I would be inclined to use method #2 and only take 25-50% of my profits. The other 50-75% of my profits would remain in the bankroll which will slow my ability to move up levels, but still allow me to grow as a poker player. It also will increase my supplemental income over time, instead of remaining stagnant at my 100NL earn rate. As an added benefit, my bankroll will be growing and able to withstand even bigger downswings further decreasing my risk of ruin.

[Chopper]

hey salsa,

2%? seems like you want to make this a career. i'm just in it for the hobby. it just so happens, it's a hobby that can give me some seed money. besides, how do you define "a fair bit of money"? isn't that a term that's different for everybody and dependent on their economic situation?

at any rate, i so appreciate your, and anybody's, opinion.

and tahnks to you, silly. i think you're right on target.

[euphoricism]

If youre doing this as a hobby, withdrawals while at low limits will absolutely kill you. Your bankroll will really never grow enough to get into decent stakes. Throw in a bad month...

The goal at low limits is to get OUT of low limits. Use all the money you can to do so :] The payments are better at 400 NL.

[salsa4ever]

hey salsa,

2%? seems like you want to make this a career. i'm just in it for the hobby. it just so happens, it's a hobby that can give me some seed money. besides, how do you define "a fair bit of money"? isn't that a term that's different for everybody and dependent on their economic situation?

at any rate, i so appreciate your, and anybody's, opinion.

and tahnks to you, silly. i think you're right on target.

Well, a "fair bit of money" is whatever you define it. Keep in mind transaction costs.

That said, I reread what i wrote and I don't like it that much now myself. So I'll take another shot at it. Lets say I wanted to only play 100NL for the rest of my life. I would be comfortable with a playing roll of $5000. I would then withdraw in $1000 increments every time I hit $6000. That's just what I'd do. The problem when you withdraw it can affect your game and your expectations... we've all heard of the cashout curse. If you take a significant chunk out of your roll, it will likely affect your game (whereas if you take out a tiny amount, what's the point). You may also develop a habit of eating up your roll which is bad. Poker is a game where your mind must be as pure as possible, and given the amount of distractions at the best of times, why make life even harder for youself?

As for me... I live in Australia. It costs me money to put a cheque in the bank and convert currency. But I have withdrawn twice. Once for $2000 (transferred it to a friend who gave me cash), and once from Pokerstars (they do Australian dollars! I'd play there if only they had a bonus or rakeback or anything!) I think when I get to $25000, I'll withdraw $10000 of it. I may do it sooner if US dollar appreciates.

I agree that one *should* withdraw. After all, those dollars sitting in your Neteller account don't earn interest and you can't buy no real estate with it. But the highest priority is facilitating your poker game. With no malice, I suggest at this stage of your poker development (25NL, $525 roll) you should not think about even *planning* to withdraw in the future, or any other thoughts associated with withdrawing, but focus on playing poker and moving up.