Getting started as a beginner

[flyingPenguin]

First, my situation:

I'm completely new to poker. I'm doing OK - I got my beginner advice from this site and a couple of others before I started playing, and now I've been playing for a few weeks for probably a total of about 40 hours, and I'm winning a bit.

I play at the $10 NL tables at europoker.com ($0.10 big blind). I've read all the bankroll management posts advising bankrolls of 10 buy-ins or whatever, but I don't have that sort of money, so my initial deposit was $20. My strategy is to buy in with $4 instead of $10. This means I can't make the best use of my good hands, but it also means I can't lose as much with my stupid mistakes. As an untrained beginner I sometimes like to give away money.

This strategy works for me so far. I built my $20 up to $70, then cashed out and I'm building it up again. I've not played the many thousands of hands required to prove I can play, but I think at the level I'm playing at my tight play is going to win a little bit consistently. I hardly see any flops, but win a big pot every now and then when I get the cards. Sometimes I do something stupid and lose my buy-in, and less often I get a bad beat for the same result, but I can afford to lose those $4 buy-ins every now and then.

My aim is to be able to consistently make an average of $5 an hour within a month. Not much, but I think it's achievable and it's enough for me to live on (yes my living expenses are low). I'm not relying on achieving this to survive though.

Things I'm working on now:
- Reduce the number of stupid mistakes I make, so I can risk a larger buy-in and capitalise on my good hands.
- Making the most of my winning hands - making the optimal bets after the flop.
- Being able to keep my head for an entire MTT, rather than building a nice stack only to lose it all with impatience.

Things I want to improve in the longer term:
- Reading players, or at least being able to tell their style of play so I'm not simply playing the cards I'm dealt.


Now for a couple of questions:

- How does everyone seem to have their hand histories available? Europoker will only give me histories for specific hands or for particular sessions, not my entire hand history or last x number of hands.

- What about all this poker software? What's the best to use? Do I have to spend money on them or can I get something useful for free? What benefits do you get? I really just want something to keep stats on my play.

[Demiparadigm]

you need an an avatar.





1) buying in short is not a bad plan for losing players, but is a definite hindrance to winning players

2) why, if you know that you are underbankrolled, would you cash out and continue to play underbankrolled

3) $5/ hr is a lot for 10NL, and is not sustainable without multitabling with a full buy in.
Also, bankroll requirements exist for a reason. You had a good start, but of you continue to play on such a small 'roll, you will go broke.

4) With so little bankroll, I would stay away from the MTTs for the most part. you really want at least 100 buy ins to play these consistently.

5) I don't know anything about euro-poker. most people play at Party or stars, as well as a few other sites that save hand histories to your hard drive. That is why we have these hand histories available. Serious players also make use of tracking software suck as Poker Tracker. This is a must if you plan to take ring games seriously.

6) Spend the money. There are cheaper and less effective programs out there, but poker tracker is worth far more than the cost.

[flyingPenguin]

you need an an avatar.

Avatar coming shortly.

1) buying in short is not a bad plan for losing players, but is a definite hindrance to winning players
2) why, if you know that you are underbankrolled, would you cash out and continue to play underbankrolled

A - To see if I could do it again.
B - That $50 is more useful in my bank account than my poker account at the moment.

I'm just checking that I'm not a losing player before I buy in with the full buy-in.

Thanks for the advice. After that initial withdrawal I'm building up my bankroll again and won't withdraw it this time. The only MTTs I've played are freerolls, but I think they're good practice. I won't buy into any without a bigger bankroll and a few successes in the freerolls.

I'll have a look at Poker Tracker and see how it treats me, as well.

[salsa4ever]

B - That $50 is more useful in my bank account than my poker account at the moment.

That's not a good sign.
In fact, it's a sign that you'll probably lose.
You might not lose, but it's more likely than not.

Most people deposit too little into their poker accounts. Some potentially talented players hit negative variance first up and quit, and most never return. Some do, and when they discover they can actually win, they lament the time lost.

Others are luckier. Their first few sessions are positive variance or at least neutral and they kick start their poker careers 'cos they now have a bankroll with which they can bypass 2NL. That was me. I only played poker 'cos my good friend asked and i thought he was talking about play money, but he insisted we play for money and even let me use his credit card... i never thought it was gonna be anything and it certainly wouldn't have been if i didn't win at first.

My point is that the poker gods have blessed u by letting you win your first few sessions. I can tell u that winning 12 buy-ins and tripling your bankroll is an extremely rare occurence and one that is extremely unlikely to happen twice. I don't know what you can do about it now that you've withdrawn. I assume that you have potential because you found your way to FTR and a winning start is at least *some* (sketchy) evidence of a winning game.

I don't really have advice for you. I've never been in a posiiton where $50 would make a difference to my bank account. All I can say is don't get your expectations too high. I think i managed about 10 hours where i won $100/hr at 200NL and for a few days i thought it would last (this was playing 3 tables with a full buy in too). You ain't gonna cover living expenses in a $10NL game buying in short with a $20 bankroll.

I really have no clue why i wrote so much especially this being unsolicited and probably unappreciated by someone who don't wanna hear it. But i'm bored multitabling and I'm doing a web page anyway where this can go. So there... you've heard it.

[Pelion]

If you need that $50 then you probably shouldnt be gambling with it...

If you still want to then try and find a site (like Paradise) where you can play $2NL.

Dont try and start working out your poker income and decide to go pro (or semipro or whatever) when you have hardly played any hands. You sound like you are pretty new so Id suggest learning the game before you decide to "live off" your poker winnings.

[shaun98si]

From a guy whos gone almost bust multiple times due to bad bankroll management I advise you to play some 2NL on dise untill you get MIN 20X buyins for 10NL. Its not that hard of a grind and pretty easy to double triple or even quaduple your buyin playing solid TAG. If you keep at 10NL I can see you being bust within a day or so if you get a bad run of cards or beats. Play smart and grind that roll up.

Also pokertracker helped me alot and showed me where my big money leaks were and showed me where to improve ( I was playing alot of marginal hands out of position and calling raises with axs with only 1 or 2 ppl in the pot). It might be a good idea to look into it but it costs 3x more than your current bankroll.

[Irisheyes]

Firstly Thanks for a refreshing beginner post and not a OMFG I AM A POKER GOD I MAKE $600 IN 2 DAYS one. For some reason they have been getting on my nerves recently.

The buying in short think I don't mind all that much when you're starting out. I used to do it too. You will come to a point when you are properly bankrolled however when you realise what it is to know how to win and you learn what playing poker really is. This kinda covers your point about playing better postflop but basically you will realise that poker involves finding an edge in a hand where you are ahead and not being afraid to push your full stack on it. That is how you make real money, but when you're starting I don't mind playing slow and kinda weak and getting a feel for things.

Don't worry about reading players yet I would say, reads are over-rated at lower limits. I think alot of players are more excited by the idea of reading players more-so then actually being able to do it. At low stakes basically everyone plays the same, ie they get too attached to TPTK etc. Set farming is a really easy, safe and solid way to play untill you get to higher levels. Again though, not buying in full will hinder this approach because you don't get full value from your sets. For this reason I think it would be a good idea if you played some 2nl or whatever untill you get to about $100 then go back to 10nl with full stacks.


I don't know shit about poker tracker or whatever so I'm afraid I cant help you there but I would say that you might have a problem using those programs if you can't get good hand histories. Make sure you check into that.

[Pelion]

Pokertracker is a great program but it will be very difficult to use effectivly (read "at all") if you cant get hand histories. You can download a free trial from their website which you can import up to 1000 hands into. that isnt enough to be a statistically significant sample for winrates and the like but it will help you identify really big leaks if you have them. It will also give you an idea of how much the full version would help you.

If you decide its useful then I suggest just moving sites. There are plenty of Pokertracker supporting sites about, many of which will offer 2NL. That combination will probably be very helpful for a relativly new player on a small bankroll.

[Hornsta9]

Hi,

I play at Europoker and I am trying to work off their bonus. Blimey it is hard! However it is very very fishy! Even more so than Paradise I would say.

Anyway, regarding hand histories. The only way you can obtain the hand histories is by a link in the game you are playing. When your playing a game in the top left hand corner it has "Hand #12345678" and underneath is "(prev hand #12345678)" the secod line is a link to the hands of that game and you can go back through past hand histories.

However, Pokertracker only reads hand histories in txt so you will probably have to copy and paste them into txt files. It is a long old process and I would suggest you change over to Paradise. About the same bad players but Poker Tracker can automatically request and import hand histories.

Hope this helps.

Hornsta9

[NoctoZ]

You seem to doing fine, but dont get all turned up side down if things turn around, and poker bites you on the butt It happens, it always happens... Its to early to know yet if you are a winning player, but even if you are or not, there is no doubt that almost anyone can become a winning playet. Just pratice all the time, and try hard to never, never, NEVER tilt. The latter is maybe impossible But always try to keep your head up. I think you should stick to 10NL, just let your roll grow and don't step up to 25NL until you have at least 250$ or so. Moving down to 2NL is imho not a good idea. Bankroll management is important, but I don't think its so friggin' important at micro stakes. If you lose 20 bucks I surely think you can scrape op another two-three buy-ins if needed? If not I think you should reconsider playing poker, and make take it up when your private finances is at better shape.

[biondino]

Seriously, stop withdrawing at least until you're beyond properly bankrolled. Because even if it happens the 3rd time, or the 4th time, you WILL lose all your money - and it could well be all your money from when you've reached $69.50, not just $20 - and then you'll have to take money OUT of your savings to reload.

At this level, with these stakes, with this experience, you are playing as a hobby. If you manage not to lose, you are doing very well. If, after you've played 50,000 hands, you are consistently making money at a higher level, you can consider what options you have regarding playing "pro". But at the moment, if the money is important to you, my advice is: go out and get a proper job, earn a decent wage, and enjoy poker in your time off.

[Renton]

you need an an avatar.

Avatar coming shortly.

1) buying in short is not a bad plan for losing players, but is a definite hindrance to winning players
2) why, if you know that you are underbankrolled, would you cash out and continue to play underbankrolled

A - To see if I could do it again.
B - That $50 is more useful in my bank account than my poker account at the moment.

I'm just checking that I'm not a losing player before I buy in with the full buy-in.

Thanks for the advice. After that initial withdrawal I'm building up my bankroll again and won't withdraw it this time. The only MTTs I've played are freerolls, but I think they're good practice. I won't buy into any without a bigger bankroll and a few successes in the freerolls.

I'll have a look at Poker Tracker and see how it treats me, as well.

If you play 10nl with only 20 dollars and you lose it all in an hour, you won't know whether you're a bad player or just unlucky. The correct move is to play lower stakes. I would recommend depositing $100 and playing nl10. That way you have ten buyins, the recommended minimum. If you can't afford that, then deposit $50 and play 5nl.

Playing with $20 and hoping to build a bankroll is like buying $20 in shares of a stock and hoping to get rich. Even if the price of the stock triples, you're still only up forty bucks.

When I started to play seriously, I deposited $300 and played the 25nl. To me, 25nl is the lowest stake that offers consistent play and a rewarding feeling of winning a big pot.

[flyingPenguin]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

My bankroll is up to $55, and I'm not too far from my $20 bonus, so I'll wait until I've got $100 and work with that, with the full buy-in. $10NL is the lowest stakes at Europoker, so I'll stick to that.

I'll make sure I can get my hand histories before I get some software. After I've cleared my bonus maybe I'll move to another site supported by Poker Tracker.

[G_host]

From what I can see EuroPoker is a pokerroom skin and if it is you don't need to change site to use Pokertracker. Both Poketracker and GT+ supports Pokerrooms and it's skins.