Betting on the Turn

[Lodogg]

I think this may be the weakest part of my game. Lets say I catch KcQc preflop in late position and raise it up 4xBB. The button calls and so does the BB. The flop comes AK4 Rainbow. I make a C Bet and the button calls, the BB folds. Now what? I am out of position and a check will be an obvious sign of weakness? That Ace is starting to look awfully scary! What if I had top pair weak kicker like Ac8c?

Thanks!

[Fnord]

Being out of position sucks.

What'cha know about him?

Check/fold
Check/call-if-weak
Check/call-pot
Repeat bet
Half-pot

are all reasonable lines.

What if I had top pair weak kicker like Ac8c?

Less inclined to bet and more inclined to call the turn.

[Rondavu]

This is a common emotion for a lot of players. What if I have the best hand? I don't want him stealing the pot from me without an ace. If I check it's like giving up isn't it? I'm going to present something to you. You won't understand right away. Imagine two scenerios...

1. You have KQ, bet an ace high board, and a player with position on you doesn't have you beat, but wants to see if you have the ace by smooth calling to check the turn action. You check, he bets, you fold the best hand.

2. You have AK, bet an ace high board, and a player with position on you doesn't have you beat, but wants to see if you have the ace by smooth calling to check the turn action. You bet more, he folds.

Well what's my point? The point is what just happened in these two hands was not very efficient as a whole. You pretty much broke even for life if these were the only two hands you ever played. Now imagine you know a couple things about this player. He's aggressive. You know he re-raises AQ and AK preflop, and you know he calls with other aces, and raises an ace high flop with these hands to check the kicker. Now the two scenerios presented become the following...

1. You have KQ, bet an ace high board, and a player with position on you doesn't have you beat, but wants to see if you have the ace by smooth calling to check the turn action. You bet harder because he would have raised an ace if he had it on the flop, and he folds.

2. You have AK, bet an ace high board, and a player with position on you doesn't have you beat, but wants to see if you have the ace by smooth calling to check the turn action. You check knowing he doesn't have the ace, but may try to steal now. He bets, you check raise him, he folds.

What Fnord seems to have presented, if he doesn't mind my commentary, is that any number of actions are reasonable depending on the information you gather. Most of the time your information won't be this precise. It will be less exact, and therefore your choice will become a longer term choice that is slightly more correct than the other options against this player. That's what a feel for the game after seeing hundreds of thousands of hands will bring to you. For now don't worry about checking and folding in this spot. You're not losing as much money as you think by giving up when the ace gets repped by the player with position on you.

[Blinky]

Here I am a week later reading this post.

Love it Rondavu, love it. This is an issue that I struggle with. Your post helps.

Would you say the same general theme applies to betting KK, QQ or even JJ/TT/99 into a single-overcard flop? (I am struggling with playing the turn in these cases when cold-called).

[Jesse K]

I agree, good post.

What it really comes down to is paying attention when your not in a hand. In live play this is much easier than online. Its easy to be talking on the phone, on AIM, checking your email, or checking sports scores and just fold/bet/raise as cards come to you. Then when the situation above occurs you are stuck in a tough spot.

I'm sure we are all guilty of not paying attention time to time, or even session to session, but taking notes really helps down the road. If you play regularly and at the same time its not surprising to see some of the same players from previous nights at your table.

With that said, take notes!

[aislephive]

This is a common emotion for a lot of players. What if I have the best hand? I don't want him stealing the pot from me without an ace. If I check it's like giving up isn't it? I'm going to present something to you. You won't understand right away. Imagine two scenerios...

1. You have KQ, bet an ace high board, and a player with position on you doesn't have you beat, but wants to see if you have the ace by smooth calling to check the turn action. You check, he bets, you fold the best hand.

2. You have AK, bet an ace high board, and a player with position on you doesn't have you beat, but wants to see if you have the ace by smooth calling to check the turn action. You bet more, he folds.

Well what's my point? The point is what just happened in these two hands was not very efficient as a whole. You pretty much broke even for life if these were the only two hands you ever played. Now imagine you know a couple things about this player. He's aggressive. You know he re-raises AQ and AK preflop, and you know he calls with other aces, and raises an ace high flop with these hands to check the kicker. Now the two scenerios presented become the following...

1. You have KQ, bet an ace high board, and a player with position on you doesn't have you beat, but wants to see if you have the ace by smooth calling to check the turn action. You bet harder because he would have raised an ace if he had it on the flop, and he folds.

2. You have AK, bet an ace high board, and a player with position on you doesn't have you beat, but wants to see if you have the ace by smooth calling to check the turn action. You check knowing he doesn't have the ace, but may try to steal now. He bets, you check raise him, he folds.

What Fnord seems to have presented, if he doesn't mind my commentary, is that any number of actions are reasonable depending on the information you gather. Most of the time your information won't be this precise. It will be less exact, and therefore your choice will become a longer term choice that is slightly more correct than the other options against this player. That's what a feel for the game after seeing hundreds of thousands of hands will bring to you. For now don't worry about checking and folding in this spot. You're not losing as much money as you think by giving up when the ace gets repped by the player with position on you.

It depends on what stakes you are playing at. Most of the players at the lower limits are just playing their own cards and not making too many plays on people. If I have KQ and have a king on an A high flop then I'm going to treat it carefully. People tend to play any ace and they give no thought to their kicker. I tend to play weak aces only if I'm the one dictating the action. But I'm always trying to keep the pot small in these situations where I'm unsure where I am in the hand. Don't be one of the donks who inflates every pot with a marginal hand.