Comments: The Newbie Circle of Death

[aokrongly]

{Comments on http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=9214 }

Great post!

[Admerylous]

I've been down this path.

You're missing the, "AGHHH! I QUIT!" Phase, though, for a month or so because of your neglect of the rest of your life and frustration with cards.

[a500lbgorilla]

I shit poker chips too.

But I don't recall eating them...

-'rilla

[storm75m]

You're missing the, "AGHHH! I QUIT!" Phase, though, for a month or so because of your neglect of the rest of your life and frustration with cards.

Luckily I didn't hit that phase, although if I would have lost my last 20 bucks, it might have been a different story. Still can't imagine quitting though, love the game too much.

'Rilla, maybe you should start selling them and making some extra cash. Put me down for 100. Unless they smell. Then you can keep your shitty chips.

[SavX]

So your saying don't get over confident and if your winning at a certain limit, stick to it until you are ready to move up?

Good advice

[ensign_lee]

Phase VII: Do I really suck?
JJ under the gun. Ya know, i would usually raise here, but with my luck, I'm probably up against kings or aces, so I'm just limping. Another lost pot. Another hand, hit trips on the flop, yes! I'm getting paid! A third diamond appears on the turn... aw crap, ya know Party Poker gives out flushes like there's no tomorrow, and shit, he just re-raised me! Is he bluffing? All my instincts are completely gone out of the window. No more confidence. The slide continues.

Phase VII: I was good, I promise!
How did I turn that $50 bucks into $700 in the first place? I can't believe I'm back where I started. Panic is starting to creep in. I guess poker just wasn't meant for me, but it sure did play with my emotions. I didn't think I needed a break, I mean, how does a break affect how you play the next hand anyway?



---
I'm right here....******* AAAAAGH! Where did all of my poker skills go????

[storm75m]

So your saying don't get over confident and if your winning at a certain limit, stick to it until you are ready to move up?

Good advice

Over confidence is the root of all poker evil. And even when you think you are ready to move on up, you're probably not. The crazy thing for me is that everytime I tried to move up (limits or more tables), it seemed to work out great for a while, but my BR slowly began to shrink.

When times start to get rocky, go back to what you know best, study your game and find leaks.

[EddieBoy]

wow...outstanding post. From my mind to u'r keyboard?....

[|~|ypermegachi]

phase I: check
phase II: check
phase III: check
phase IV: check
phase V: check
phase VI: check
phase VII: check
phase VIII: check
phase IX: check
phase X: check

[Admerylous]

You're missing the, "AGHHH! I QUIT!" Phase, though, for a month or so because of your neglect of the rest of your life and frustration with cards.

Luckily I didn't hit that phase, although if I would have lost my last 20 bucks, it might have been a different story. Still can't imagine quitting though, love the game too much.

'Rilla, maybe you should start selling them and making some extra cash. Put me down for 100. Unless they smell. Then you can keep your shitty chips.

Let me rephrase:
Switch to playing only the one or two games a week with friends for fun. Of course not cutting cold turkey all together.

But, I was basically on permanant tilt for over a month and pretty much just walked away until I felt like I was ready to play again.

[Fnord]

It comes and it goes. One week every time you sit down you expect to leave $100 richer, the next week you can't hit shit and when you do you get sucked out on.

[Cocco_Bill]

So your saying don't get over confident and if your winning at a certain limit, stick to it until you are ready to move up?

Good advice

Over confidence is the root of all poker evil. And even when you think you are ready to move on up, you're probably not. The crazy thing for me is that everytime I tried to move up (limits or more tables), it seemed to work out great for a while, but my BR slowly began to shrink.

When times start to get rocky, go back to what you know best, study your game and find leaks.

Yeah that's what I'm scared of happening to me if I decide to move up. Right now I've enjoyed a few months of pretty much just winning, with only a few losing days in between. It gets comfortable to stay put when you know that you can easily beat the level you are playing at and not want to risk going through that list of phases in your original post.

Nice post BTW

[UG]

Phase III: I am the shit.
I am the poker master. I eat, sleep, dream, and shit poker chips.

Ohh the comedy. HILARIOUS!

Excellent post, bro.

[storm75m]

Thanks for the good feedback guys... (sticky worthy?) I just noticed I have two Phase VII's, probably because by the time you're in this phase you probably cant count anymore anyway...

Just to clarify, here are some of the mistakes I was making:

-Overvaluing good hands when I finally catch one. Was on a bad run for so long, that when I finally caught something, I played it too strongly and ended up running into a bigger hand pretty often.

-OVER Confidence - You think you know everything, so you start slowplaying more to suck more money out of pots. You try to start bending and twisting the basic concepts that built your bankroll to begin with. (Loosening up, calling down, bluffing, etc.) You start messing around with other things, seeing how many tables you can run at a time.

-Lack of focus, goes hand-in-hand with over confidence. You feel like the game is almost "automatic" to you, and you can sit with a laptop and watch TV in between good hands. Or you just sit in at a table for a few minutes to see some cards, and hope to get lucky. If you're ever "hoping to get lucky", then you're playing for the wrong reason.

-No patience (stupidest of them all) I remember playing one morning before work, and I really had to leave. After seeing people take down $4-7 dollar pots by betting without seeing a showdown for a while, I decided it was my turn to take a pot just so I could leave in the green, and I was betting/raising no matter what. Dumbest decision ever, someone flopped a boat.

-No more fishing. Table selection is one of the most important factors in being profitable. But once you get to a certain level, you expect to sit down at any table and turn a profit. And a lot of the time you know a table isn't good, but you just want to get back your original buy in and get out.

[Humphrind]

(sticky worthy?)

Yea, OK.

{Made sticky}

[storm75m]

Yea, OK.

{Made sticky}

Thank you oh kind gracious sticky master.

[ensign_lee]

-Overvaluing good hands when I finally catch one. Was on a bad run for so long, that when I finally caught something, I played it too strongly and ended up running into a bigger hand pretty often.

-OVER Confidence - You think you know everything, so you start slowplaying more to suck more money out of pots. You try to start bending and twisting the basic concepts that built your bankroll to begin with. (Loosening up, calling down, bluffing, etc.) You start messing around with other things, seeing how many tables you can run at a time.

-Lack of focus, goes hand-in-hand with over confidence. You feel like the game is almost "automatic" to you, and you can sit with a laptop and watch TV in between good hands. Or you just sit in at a table for a few minutes to see some cards, and hope to get lucky. If you're ever "hoping to get lucky", then you're playing for the wrong reason.

-No patience (stupidest of them all) I remember playing one morning before work, and I really had to leave. After seeing people take down $4-7 dollar pots by betting without seeing a showdown for a while, I decided it was my turn to take a pot just so I could leave in the green, and I was betting/raising no matter what. Dumbest decision ever, someone flopped a boat.

-No more fishing. Table selection is one of the most important factors in being profitable. But once you get to a certain level, you expect to sit down at any table and turn a profit. And a lot of the time you know a table isn't good, but you just want to get back your original buy in and get out.

Me in a nutshell right now...I don't think I can remember hwo to play poker correctly right now...

[storm75m]

Me in a nutshell right now...I don't think I can remember hwo to play poker correctly right now...

Honestly I'm still not completely back on track either. To force myself to play right, I've locked myself in my office (keep me focused), and I'm buying in with less than the max (NL) to force me to keep it tight. It's tough as hell right now. You just gotta think back to exactly what you were doing when you were winning, your mindframe, your environment, your limits, everything. Re-read the exact thing that got you going in the first place. I dunno, just my tips, from one loser to another.

[Pizzaman]

Sounds exactly like the last 3 weeks for me. Down to my last $25 2 days ago, got down to $8 and had to step back, take a look at what I was doing. I have come to the conclusion that this is a game that I will continue to be learning for as long as I play, whether I'm learning about the game or learning about myself. Been a pretty frustrating couple of weeks though.

[BeatMeBad]

Man, I always knew the internet wasn't secure but how the hell have you been watching me play poker the past 6 months?!?!

Great post. (I am somewhere between 9 and 10 at this point...)

[strix]

Gah! That's me this week, down, down, down in the beating beaten sucks hell.

[Les_Worm]

This alone is sticky worthy.

[Wolverine42]

I just figured I would chime in here, and say I am still in the premature phases of this as but thats only because I am just about to discover the world of online poker. All games I play have been in person to this point.

However, Howard Lederer was just on a local radio station around here and gave this advice, "Walk away for the night, the game will be there tommorow".

Basically he plays large cash games at the Belagio whenever he is not playing in tournaments. He has a safe deposit box at the Belagio, he will withdraw a certain amount of cash and if he loses for some reason he is done for the night. Basically he said that if he loses then he is off his game and he just needs to go home and come back another day. Getting more money to spend that night is just bankroll suicide.

Of course he is light years ahead of us as far as his game is concerned but its still sound advice.

[Molinero]

I just figured I would chime in here, and say I am still in the premature phases of this as but thats only because I am just about to discover the world of online poker. All games I play have been in person to this point.

However, Howard Lederer was just on a local radio station around here and gave this advice, "Walk away for the night, the game will be there tommorow".

Basically he plays large cash games at the Belagio whenever he is not playing in tournaments. He has a safe deposit box at the Belagio, he will withdraw a certain amount of cash and if he loses for some reason he is done for the night. Basically he said that if he loses then he is off his game and he just needs to go home and come back another day. Getting more money to spend that night is just bankroll suicide.

Of course he is light years ahead of us as far as his game is concerned but its still sound advice.

Who's Howard Lederer?

[Muxy]

hopfully you are joking..............

[Ayce]

Excellent post.

Once you come out the other side things look a lot better.

[Pingviini]

Great post! I really recognize myself here. A couple of times after a good run in nl25 or nl50 I have moved up and still multitabled which has evidently cost me money and made me come back down. Or if I have stayed at the same stakes I have started to become cocky and play too many hands, be overly aggressive against the non-bluffable fish and so and..

[Estrop]

I've been losing a bit, still up everyday but my game really seems unstable. After reading this, I think I know where I'm going wrong..

[gabe]

i like your post!

[sykl1]

I had stopped playing for a few months because of those very reasons. Ive been studying just to keep myself on the ball incase a home game came around. After reading this i have to give it another chance...

[Jimmy Mac]

Great post storm!

I always find low if I take some beats in the ring games, low buy tourneys are a good way to work of some aggression. If you can snag a few chips early you can make peoples lives a misery pushing over the top, check raise bluffing and generally trying all the crazy plays you want.

In my (limited) Laggy play doesn't fly for me at $25 NL ring, the fish call me down. I'd rather camp, and hammer them with my good hands. I guess to play this way you need a great post flop game and good reads.

[WhooFleuryScores]

Luckily I just caught myself in Phase V: Here come the swings,so I'll keep that in mind.Thanks for the warning;you got me before my "too late" phase.

[shadylanes]

That is classic, just went through all those phases. Wish I could of read that earlier...

[acesn8tz]

Great post. Just so. Just so.
damnit.

[BIGandRICH]

Nice post, I went through pretty much all of that, except for busting almost completely out, i dropped from 700 to 500, slapped myself in the face and started winning again.. the psychology was exactly the same.

[bencathers]

You should be a psychologist... its like the stages you go through when you find out you are dying

[Tom_s00]

Thanks for that it made alot of sense to, me especially as im mid way through it. Alothough not on such a big scale...

Anyway thanks bud.

[k8s]

Mine hasn't been quite that extreme, but it happened to me too. I dropped 1/3 of my BR and started to question my game. It didn't seem like I could win for a few months. Just recently, I'm starting to win a lot more, so I'm somewhere around phase 3. Hopefully I don't end up on another huge downswing.

Nice post.

[cheezyscreenname]

That is one fine analysis of what it's like to go through the variance and the growing pains of playing poker, especially NLHE. I had to completely bottom out and go on ultra-tilt before I could even rationally get a hold of myself and stop the bleeding of my bankroll.

Phase XI: F&%! It...
I could not catch cards for what seemed like weeks and when I finally did I was getting beat while I was holding the second best hand over and over again. I did the worst thing and moved up into stakes, beyond my bankroll, to try to make up for my losses (and I knew better). Using blind aggression to muscle people out of pots with hands that are prone to be dominated. Thinking that UB was rigged. Thinking I was entitled to win because, "I was just a better player". Which deteriorated into an, "I don't give a sh!t attitude". I'll show you POKER GODS! DAMN YOU! Finally just willfully trying to blow my bankroll, which I succeded in losing a third of.

Pure Insanity and loss of rational.

I don't recommend this for anyone, but I seriously think I had to bottom out emotionally. I think I had to have my ego crushed so it would get toughened up for the long haul.

Since my meltdown I haven't had a starting hand drought quite as bad as the one that preceeded that incident, but I have had my confidence and resovle tested. I had the second best set 3 hands in a row! I just didn't let running into a better hand affect me like it had in the past. Experience and having a deeper understanding of the nature of the game dictated that, "This too shall pass."

[WhooFleuryScores]

JJ under the gun. Ya know, i would usually raise here, but with my luck, I'm probably up against kings or aces, so I'm just limping.

I found myself doing that a few nights ago.Limping with J-J,A-Js,A-Q,and even A-K(suited or not).My icon changed from Tight/Aggressive to Tight/Passive.

Guess I gotta change that!

[suryodaya]

I recently moved up in the stakes and took such a winning streak that I thought I was 1 step away from being able to give away my job. It's hard to help concluding that you are a poker genius when you're on a huge rush. Of course that rush ended and it took me a long time to realize that that's what it had been - a rush - and I've lost about 1/3 of my bankroll in that time as I experienced the negative side of the rush and had more bad beats in a week than I think I had in the entire time before that.

So now I'm consolidating. I was getting so angry with limit Texas that I decided to quit it altogether for a while to get my balance back. Instead I've been playing limit Omaha hi-lo and Texas SnG's. My bankroll is creeping back up and I'm having fun again...and sometime I will go back to the Texas Holdem ring games with my head refreshed. The fun thing is important, and I am finding Omaha hi-lo to be a very fun game...which (surprise) a lot of people play very badly...

[Ltrain]

Great Post!

I am a new member but have been lurking for a while. I was going to post something similar to this as I have been through the cycle about 4 times, but you said it perfectly. After my last downcycle I reviewed my PT stats and see that I was overplaying hands trying to get back on track. Hopefully I can stop the insanity.

[Berksmickey]

pizzaman, i gotta ask, who is that bird on your avatar?!? She is STUNNING!!

[kfellmy]

Luckily it took me a while to get through these steps. Three weeks after I started I won my first tourney...a freeroll at Dynamite Poker (R.I.P.) Got a whole 6 bucks. Their tourney for the winners the following Sunday I got lucky and won it so I had 26 bucks. A month later I got third in the quarterly tourney and got 400. Then I started playing too many hands. Bankroll got cut in half before i took a look at what i was doing wrong. I have had a few dry spells since then but nothing too major.

[Warpe]

Man oh man oh man...I wish I'd read this months ago...Absolutely bang-on...

This site is full of philosopher kings.

[kashpot]

This is too much. I have experience this to the fullest. Initially, I deposited $50 on Pacific where i would win a bit at .25/.50 level. I got my roll up to just shy of $100 bucks. Than i decided to go ino the $10 NL room where all of my ills have occured.

My first session in NL, i win $25 bucks in the matter of twenty minutes. I am a genius right! Move over Phil Ivey and David Williamson, I am the next young gun on the poker scene. Well, poker has a way of finding out what you are made from if you are not good or play a leaky game. And sure enough, that is what has happened. My bankroll is down to zilch, and I am sitting here comtemplating how to get back to a level of consistent winning. Ouch!

[FlyingSaucy]

I have not experienced this. Unfortunately it also took me my first 8 months of playing to build my bankroll from $50 to $200. Yes. $150 winnings for 8 months of playing. I think I was very nervous and concerned in the beginning about losing my money that it took me a while to get over the hump of "I can't, *CAN'T* lose my buyin at this NL table" so it affected my play. So basically bankroll management was just about the only thing I really understood and excelled at right off the bat, since it is so simple all it takes is discipline to stick to your plan.
Three cheers for giving up the newb dream!!!! Hip hip hooray!! ....
:P

[pgil]

I think I read this post just in time. After 10 or so months of really careful, patient, disciplined play that took my bankroll from $5 to over $1000, I had just entered stage 4 or 5. I think I was THIS close to squandering much of my hard earned cash by messing with multiple tables involving too much of my roll. The variance was getting a little extreme.

It's back to basics for me.

Thanks for the excellent post.

[BoondockSaint]

I just figured I would chime in here, and say I am still in the premature phases of this as but thats only because I am just about to discover the world of online poker. All games I play have been in person to this point.

However, Howard Lederer was just on a local radio station around here and gave this advice, "Walk away for the night, the game will be there tommorow".

Basically he plays large cash games at the Belagio whenever he is not playing in tournaments. He has a safe deposit box at the Belagio, he will withdraw a certain amount of cash and if he loses for some reason he is done for the night. Basically he said that if he loses then he is off his game and he just needs to go home and come back another day. Getting more money to spend that night is just bankroll suicide.

Of course he is light years ahead of us as far as his game is concerned but its still sound advice.

Yeah this is a man that was dead broke for a couple of years when he was younger and made about 15 dollars a day being an errand boy for poker players and would flush his entire 15 dollar bank roll down the shitter night after night for years at the 1/2 limit table. Luckily he gained a little wisdom and stopped repeating the process after a couple years.

[azureXsmurF]

I just finished going through this... took my 75 deposit up to 100 then down to $30.

Now I've gotten my shit together and I'm back up to $50~_~

Good post... put things into perspective for me to get refocused.

[spot]

I am just now at phase 2. $100 initial deposit has turned into $800 playing $5 and $10 45 player S&G's. Just pretty consistently getting down to 18 players left with a top 5 stack. Just feeling like I must be missing something because it can't really be this easy. Thinking that I could now lose 30 $20 dollar tournaments in a row and still be on house cash so why not move up in stakes even though I don't have all that much experience.

But I do have some things in my favor. Keeping composure in the face of bad beats comes very natural to me. I don't need the higher stakes to still enjoy poker. I do still feel like I have a ton to learn (just learned about counterfeiting a low PP the hard way).

Unfortunately there are some potential pitfalls there as well. I am at the point where I am thinking implied odds trump pot odds in many situations in NL. I am probably too eager to count on fold equity from an all in to give me +EV even if I am just 50/50 to win the hand. I probably cbet too much and think that it is making me predictable. But we will see how it all shakes out. Its hard to see much of a downside when you are riding the euphoria of phase 2.

[Halv]

I just have to say that, as I've now read this post for the umpteenth time, it is ESSENTIAL reading. I'm still 'waiting' for my first turn of the circle after switching to full ring, hopefully rereading this thread will keep me from going through the pain.

[givememyleg]

Great post.... first time I have read this.

[CFH]

Thanks alot! Great post!!!

[Juice]

Great post, I just went from putting in my initial $50 in Party Poker, played hardcore for that first couple of days, 10+ hours a day, had made it up to around $320, and then inevitablly, I started getting cocky, and before I knew it, I was down to around $40. At that point, I was just so shocked and mentally unprepared to deal with it, and almost purposely lost it, going all in with low crappy pocket pairs and the like. Needless to say, I was quickly knocked out, and I realized that it was a very expensive but good lesson for me.

Just gotta get back to playing my game, and go back and re-read strategies and hit the books, and hopefully good things will follow.

[Halv]

I'm gonna *bump* this again. Right now I think I am in the "Rediscovery" phase after a few weeks of thinking I'm the shit. I'm glad that I see it coming before my roll goes down the drain.

Time to get a grip, be humble and find my way back to good poker!

[Jack Sawyer]

Man oh man oh man...I wish I'd read this months ago...Absolutely bang-on...

and I'm going precisely through some of the described phases.
gp

[Vetranio]

This is a great site! I like the ^&**^*ck style. Every article is either a thriller or comedy.
Great Job!

[kb coolman]

I feel like this guy had read my mail. I've been through every one of those phases, every single emotion. Right now it's back to the basics. Books books books.

[HarleyGuy13]

OMG... I can't find the damn camera's. How are you people watching my every move?

I would have sworn you were describing me.

[bpurvis2]

LOL for some reason I always have focus but I hit a bad run to AAvsKK king spikes but didn't get pist just said aww this is that variance thing lol and continued to focus and the bad run didn't last long before bamm no morebad beats I'm on a good run of not getting beats and winning the hands I should win and if you stay focused your bad swings will not be as long as they could be and your bankroll will grow on a slow but constent basiss.

[only_bridge]

Thx for the article. Never gonna happen to me... Oh no it happened to me!

[RoyalProdigy]

ive gone down this road, more than once and stopped playing more than once. i had no bankroll management skills. Now im not going to lie i struggle with straight up TILT. I got real bad a few times so i just stopped playing for a while. Time away helps so much honestly

[grindinginnj]

great post and anyone who has played has beent through all of these swings im sure.

[RML604]

An excellent read every time. Currently very frustrated with the game and my play, but I knew my road to becoming a bazillionaire by player cyber poker wouldn't be easy.

But seriously, how sweet does it feel when you're going through Phases II and III.

[tncatfish43]

what about the wanting to throw computer out the window phase?I threw my mouse and knoked hole in drywall

[Wynnjos]

Like everyone else that has replied, this post nailed it. I just went through this circle as well, with a lot more dough. I was playing 200NL and not paying attention to bankroll, moving up, and eventually I lost after a few weeks of wins. Then I lost some more and instead of backing up to evaluate my game or rest the tilt away I played like an absolute idiot, losing over $1500. Now Im back with a managed bankroll and a fresh outlook on my poker skills. I love the articles on this site and will continue to read and learn and play accordingly.

[T-Rex]

i read this awhile ago

this post is absolutely amazing who ever made it is a god damn pimp

[riguy724]

I began playing poker about 3 months ago and I can quite honestly say that my thoughts have progressed through this loop 4 or 5 times. I've had 4 bankrolls, all of which grew shrank and left me feeling hopelessly empty when they were gone.

I like the insight you provide here, that poker takes strict concentration and dedication.

Thanks for a great post.

[FateAver]

WOW just read this for first time

I realized myself had just gone through Phase 7-8 and startin in Phase 9

Lose high pot to miracle hands many times
then back to the start line again and wonder
"Maybe I'm just not suitable for poker?"
"Should I use my free time to something different?"

Well , thinking last 3 months as my experience of poker now.
If it come to worst situation like run out of bankroll again
I will just play only Freeroll or just quit playing poker...
but I won't regret because I having fun with playing poker anyway

[venichhe]

lmao, that is funny. I feel just like it, I bought in with $25 raised it to 80 and now I have 37. lmao

[CrazyAndy27s]

It reminds me of when I played using luck...

[datuspoker]

good post