Beginner already tired of losing

[gabe]

Hi everyone,
I have been playing for a couple months now and within the past week I dropped $100 on to partypoker. As of today, it is all gone (including the bonus).

I know I am still a beginner, but I can't afford to get better at poker at this rate. I have a good set of starting hands (I consider myself I tight player) and I think I know when it is best to flop. I don't have any specific examples, the only thing I have to show for efforts is -$100 on my bank account.

I am hesitant about putting more money into if I am just going to lose it again, but I really like the game and want to keep playing. Was there any one thing that got you over the hump (so to speak) of losing? What's some good advice I could follow?
Thanks for your help, I look forward to posting/learning alot more here.

[Les_Worm]

Well first, with a total poker bankroll of $100 there really aren't any games you should be playing on Party Poker. I would suggest going to PokerStars and practicing in some of their smaller games. As far as 'getting over the hump', I was a losing player until I grasped the concept of position and that (along with other things) helped me develop into a winning player.

[lonnie]

The $105 dollar six month poker education for cheapskate limit players:

Buy SSH and read it. Flip through other books at the bookstore and see if you pick up any other good points. A lot of these books just have the same damn thing over and over. Read posts at 2+2 and FTR. BUY POKERTRACKER NOW - if you are serious about poker.

Deposit 50.00 at PokerStars
Play .05/.10 limit until you win 300 BB
Play .25/.50 limit until you win 300 BB
Play .50/1.00 limit until you win 600 BB - do this at Party
Play 1/2 .....You can get to this point in less than 6 months. I did it in 5.

The whole time you are playing, post hands, make tweaks to your game, etc.

There is no reason you should ever have to spend more than 50.00 to play poker the rest of your life.

Oh yeh, play money is a total waste of time. Do it to have fun, not to learn poker.

[gabe]

you think starting NL is a bad idea?

[gutshot]

you think starting NL is a bad idea?

You'll probably get answers on both ends of the spectrum and a bunch in between.

I started out playing strictly NL. Couple $100 deposits at Party, moved to another site lost again. I followed the above plan and have turned $50 into a $400 bankroll in just a bit over a month.

Limit just plain works for me. I still play NL at times as a break, but it's not my main game anymore.

Bottom line is start out small, play within your bankroll, and specialize.

[Lucid]

They have cheap NL games at poker stars as well. Whether you play limit or no limit you should make your early mistakes at the lowest limit possible. There are too many good players at $25 NL games at party poker who are looking to capitalize on your mistakes. Poker Stars has .01/.02 and .05/.10 cent no limit games. Work your bankroll up and try the $25 NL games after you get some practice.

[gabe]

you think starting NL is a bad idea?

You'll probably get answers on both ends of the spectrum and a bunch in between.

I started out playing strictly NL. Couple $100 deposits at Party, moved to another site lost again. I followed the above plan and have turned $50 into a $400 bankroll in just a bit over a month.

Limit just plain works for me. I still play NL at times as a break, but it's not my main game anymore.

Bottom line is start out small, play within your bankroll, and specialize.

on the frontpage of FTR, there is so much talk about how bad low limit is and how even good players only earn the BB every hour (something like that). Is that wrong, do you think your just lucky, do you think you are really good, or do you just think you play crappy people?

[gutshot]

on the frontpage of FTR, there is so much talk about how bad low limit is and how even good players only earn the BB every hour (something like that). Is that wrong, do you think your just lucky, do you think you are really good, or do you just think you play crappy people?

Those articles were written a year ago and haven't been changed. The admins of this site still play NL and most of them are doing quite well. However, there are more than a handful of people here that started out playing NL and moved to limit simply because that's where the most bad players are. It's not just at the micro limits either. There are bad players as high up as 5/10 as I'm sure Fnord and koolmoe will attest. They crush those games and make a ton of money doing it.

I don't profess to be a great or even good poker player. I do know that I'm good enough to beat the games that I play on a pretty consistent basis. I'm still learning and probably will continue to do so as long I play this game.

The BB/Hr figures on the front page are pretty useless in the online poker world. That figure comes from brick and mortar casinos. Online you play more hands and can even play multiple tables at the same time. You can easily double, triple, or more the number of hands that you see over the same time spent sitting in a seat at a card room.

[gabe]

i have read phil helmuth's book section on LL hold em. i know his book doesn't get much praise, so should i just disregard phil's style and read super system? i did start out playing limit, but that was only in my first week or so of playing.


edit: is phil's book even worth finishing?

[|~|ypermegachi]

i have read phil helmuth's book section on LL hold em. i know his book doesn't get much praise, so should i just disregard phil's style and read super system? i did start out playing limit, but that was only in my first week or so of playing.


edit: is phil's book even worth finishing?

i say the more knowledge the better. just be able to tell the differences between the books. find each of their advantages and disadvantages.

[gutshot]

I haven't read it, nor have I heard any stellar reviews of it. I'm sure Phil himself would tell you otherwise.

I started out reading Winning Low Limit Holdem by Lee Jones. It's a great foundation for a beginning low limit holdem player and you can put together a pretty good game with the book. A lot of people will tell you it's a weak tight style, which it is to some degree, but it's still a winning strategy.

When you get comfortable, check out Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller et al.
It will help you take your game to the next level and win even more.

I'm just regurgitating what worked for me. Your mileage may vary.

[lonnie]

on the frontpage of FTR, there is so much talk about how bad low limit is and how even good players only earn the BB every hour (something like that). Is that wrong, do you think your just lucky, do you think you are really good, or do you just think you play crappy people?

The good players earning 1 BB/hr - I believe this is at the 15/30 B&M games where you are up against good players usually.

I think the opinion on limit presented on the front page is wrong and should be changed. It is more of a personal opinion than a proven fact. I don't think much research went into that statement.

Playing pretty well against crappy people is what it's all about. Just don't get in a hurry.

Buy pokertracker!

[gabe]

on the frontpage of FTR, there is so much talk about how bad low limit is and how even good players only earn the BB every hour (something like that). Is that wrong, do you think your just lucky, do you think you are really good, or do you just think you play crappy people?

The good players earning 1 BB/hr - I believe this is at the 15/30 B&M games where you are up against good players usually.

I think the opinion on limit presented on the front page is wrong and should be changed. It is more of a personal opinion than a proven fact. I don't think much research went into that statement.

Playing pretty well against crappy people is what it's all about. Just don't get in a hurry.

Buy pokertracker!

whats the idea with pokertracker? from what I read, i can keep track of all my hands with it and show what I win with and what i lose with, and then I can post that here for all your expert analyses?

[lonnie]

Go browse the Tools of Poker forum. There are quite a few informative threads about PokerTracker there.

Even better, go to http://www.pokertracker.com and download it. It's free for up to 1,000 hands.

Yes, posting hands and stats from PT for criticism by fellow FTR'rs can be beneficial.

[koolmoe]

on the frontpage of FTR, there is so much talk about how bad low limit is and how even good players only earn the BB every hour (something like that). Is that wrong, do you think your just lucky, do you think you are really good, or do you just think you play crappy people?

First, the figure of 1BB/hr comes from poker literature addressing live play, where you typically see 30-35 hands per hour. The intended audience for that literature are professionaly poker players, who are typically playing higher limit games, which tend to be tougher.

Online, you will see roughly twice as many hands at a single table per hour, and you can play multiple tables as well. You can thus earn 4 BB/hour or more with the same skill level relatively easily.

IMO, people don't like limit because it is less about making the best hand and more about pushing small edges. It think it is also more about the long run than NL. You also need the right personality, because you will suffer more beats by longshots than you typically do in limit.

[koolmoe]

whats the idea with pokertracker? from what I read, i can keep track of all my hands with it and show what I win with and what i lose with, and then I can post that here for all your expert analyses?

More importantly, it keeps track of your opponents. This information is far more critical to your success.

[|~|ypermegachi]

whats the idea with pokertracker? from what I read, i can keep track of all my hands with it and show what I win with and what i lose with, and then I can post that here for all your expert analyses?

More importantly, it keeps track of your opponents. This information is far more critical to your success.

this is especially useful when a TA-A raises you preflop. you can safely muck AJo knowing you'll be dominated more often than not.

if a LP-P makes the same bet, you might even consider reraising.

[koolmoe]

this is especially useful when a TA-A raises you preflop. you can safely muck AJo knowing you'll be dominated more often than not.

if a LP-P makes the same bet, you might even consider reraising.

You've got it backwards. If a passive player raises, he's got a big hand. An aggressive player will raise lots of hands that AJ can beat, especially if you have position.

[|~|ypermegachi]

this is especially useful when a TA-A raises you preflop. you can safely muck AJo knowing you'll be dominated more often than not.

if a LP-P makes the same bet, you might even consider reraising.

You've got it backwards. If a passive player raises, he's got a big hand. An aggressive player will raise lots of hands that AJ can beat, especially if you have position.

yeah i do...whoops lol
i hope i wasn't doing that during my games....

[idleguy]

I personally prefer micro stakes NL as i don't make the same money in limit whatever stakes. That's because I'm aggressive like a gorilla and in limit ppl. will chase longshots which i don't want to happen regularly and u can't do much to change the odds against them. while it's possible to change the odds in NL by increasing the bet amount. Moreover NL is fun.

[gutshot]

I personally prefer micro stakes NL as i don't make the same money in limit whatever stakes. That's because I'm aggressive like a gorilla and in limit ppl. will chase longshots which i don't want to happen regularly and u can't do much to change the odds against them. while it's possible to change the odds in NL by increasing the bet amount. Moreover NL is fun.

You need to realize that they are two completely different games. All the reasons you mention you don't like limit are the same reasons I love it. The notion that aggression is not a factor in limit ring is completely absurd. Regarding odds, there are still plenty of situations where it's incorrect to draw yet people still pay to see another card. I like when they do that.

[elipsesjeff]

I personally prefer micro stakes NL as i don't make the same money in limit whatever stakes. That's because I'm aggressive like a gorilla and in limit ppl. will chase longshots which i don't want to happen regularly and u can't do much to change the odds against them. while it's possible to change the odds in NL by increasing the bet amount. Moreover NL is fun.

1) Its easier to improve your game playing Limit, its also a more noticeable improvement.

2) Aggression is just as important in Limit as it is in NL.

3) You want people to chase longshots in all games you play. Those are the people that pay us off.

4) You can do a lot to change the odds against them, its called Post-Flop play. Check-Raising, free cards, position. All these are important in Limit.

5) Limit is just as fun as NL, especially as you get good at it. Sitting around waiting for AA to go all-in on hoping to double-up isn't my idea of a good time. How about 4-tabling a limit table and pwning on all of them? Now THATS a good time.

The argument of which game is better is obviously biased. I've played relatively few hands in NL (probably ~1000), and i've dont pretty good. I like not being able to lose my entire stack on just one hand. And the pots get just as big in Limit as they do in NL. With a lot of callers, the pot will frequently surpass 20 BB in the Low limit games. As you improve, this dollar amount will increase (while the BB stays constant) and it becomes harder and harder in NL games to surpass this total. Theres nothing like winning a $100 pot when only $25 of it was yours, as compared to $50 in NL.

You've told me that you tried both styles. Just stick to what YOU want to do, make your own decision and after that learn from there. Its okay to be a NL player just as muchas it is to be a Limit player. Pick your idle: Fnord or Rippy.

[|~|ypermegachi]

jeff....you forgot to mention there are plenty of fish in the sea at the higher limit tables, but far less in the NL tables.

[Bite]

There are plenty of fish at the higher limits of NL as well.

The main issue is which is the right game for you. I think you should have a pretty good knowledge of both fixed and NL and PL to be a successful over all player in the long run. Most live games are fixed at casinos. Also it's a good idea to learn more than one game because there might be more weak players in other games such as 7-stud Omaha etc. etc. at some times.

Anyone can learn how to play Texas Holdem reasonable, there's a lot of litterature about it and it's the biggest game. You might find your edge increases at other games becasuse the common knowledge is so much lower there. About fixed and NL, these are my opinions:

NL is EASIER than fixed. In fixed you must play better than the fish all the time, have great discipline and earn by other small mistakes. The opponents makes (small) mistakes all the time (if they are bad) and you have to take good decisions all the time.

If you are a new player you might be able to lose less in fixed against good players if you play a disciplined game. That's why fixed was invented by the casinos. To protect the weak players so that they didn't bust out too fast. This is the same reason they have max buyin's at the NL tables.

In NL your (small) mistakes won't be as serious as in fixed. You can benefit more on the weaker players (huge) mistakes and still win money. On the other hand, playing NL against good opponents will bust you out much quicker.

The limit that gives the good player the greatest edge imo should be Pot Limit since there is more decisions in it than in No Limit. In No Limit a bad player can make it easy for himself and get all the money in preflop or on the flop and doesn't have to take any more decisions on the later streets. That's not possible in Pot Limit (most of the time) at least not in a cash game with small blinds compared to the stacks.

All that said, NL and fixed is two completely different games and you should learn both. Good luck and have fun!

EDIT: Spelling, sorry bout my poor english I'm foreign.

[elipsesjeff]

Gabe = Newb.

[a500lbgorilla]

And the award for "Most Magnificent Bastard of the Day" goes to Jeff!

You've earned it.

-'rilla

[|~|ypermegachi]

talk about bringing a thread back from the dead...

[gabe]

i'm a beginner tired of losing damnit help me

[elipsesjeff]

And the award for "Most Magnificent Bastard of the Day" goes to Jeff!

You've earned it.

-'rilla

Yes!!!!

[gabe]

all help is appreciated

[Demiparadigm]

all help is appreciated

Quit the 2 street bingo and move to a real poker game

The higher you move up in SnGs, the lower your ROI, and the higher your variance.

There is a point of diminishing returns where you are better off playing a ring game.

That being said, low limit SnGs are a great way for a beginner to gain experience and make some money on the side. (or lose less than they would in a ring game)

PS: Happy Birthday to this post, and your tenure here at FTR.
looks like you've come a long way.

[gabe]

ty

[CFANG]

As for Phil junior's book, its not bad, not stellar, but worth a read. If you're interested in shameless PHJR. bashing check out phil gordon's book.

But specifically to your topic. I started with a tiny roll (10) playing micro limits on stars, worked it up to 50 then started mixing in the ocational SnG. I started to get a feel for them and have done reasonably well for a largely recreational but interested player. loosing your roll sounds painful (i'v had hits but haven't busted out yet) but if you like the game, as your post count suggests, get back to the table and beat up on those .01/.02 stars fish =)

[r8ed]

I came to this point in August. Then I read AOK's posts in the beginner forums. You really have to apply yourself to follow what you read. I did this starting on 9/1/2005. That was going to be and is the last deposit that came out of my pocket. It was hard to play tight-weak and let go of hands I used to race with. But, I remembered it's either change or quit so I stayed focused. Over time I learned to open back up a little and grew my bankroll at the same time. My bankroll i s almost $1500 now - I'm at 25NL but will move up soon. Anybody can do it if they stay disciplined. In fact several people on here did the same as me. And when you do start making $$, you will look back and think - how was I NOT making money playing poker. You can PM me with any questions now or along the way.

BTW - many people on here help me get to where I am. AOK, was jus the catalyst.

[bigredhoss]

patience/discipline is one of the more underrated aspects of poker imo, and for a lot of people the most difficult to get a hang of...you dont have to be stu ungar to beat the lower limits, don't try and make tough calls etc.

[umcanes73]

As for your earlier question about books, reading everything about poker can be useful, but don't take anything as gospel because it was in a book (no matter the book or author). i.e. Super System, while being the "Bible of Poker" is not necessarily giving the optimum strategy for these low limit games (NL or limit). It was written for mid to high limit games when discussing many strategies.