8000 Hand Results for Dissection

[Jiggus]

First, I'd like to thank AOK for setting me on the path to a better game.

Next, I'd like to presage the link to my stats by saying that before October, 2005 I was a poker nutbar. I was playing 5 different levels, both limit and NL and was wildly inconsistent, with a tendency to go on tilt, to play drunk, and to go on tournament binges which would cost me dearlyl.

AOK set me straight by advising me to play only ONE limit. I have decided to stick to $2NL for now, because that suits my $150 bankroll just fine. I really don't mind losing two, three or even four buy-ins at this limit. That means, tilt is a thing of the past for me now.

Next, after about 2100 hands of only $2NL, I switched to a 19 hand starting strategy. AOK's, as well. At 2800 hands I was down to -$0.40 (negative forty cents) and -0.35 BB/100 hands. I was thinking, "Oh, this is good!".

Then a couple other FTR people helped set me straight again. Laeelin and R8ed pop to mind. Set me to realising that I needed a lot more hands to know what was happening, and they also helped me improve my betting strategies. Need to improve more, of course, but so far, things seem OK.

One thing I can't thank FTR members for is my giving up the firewater. That's probably had just as big a positive effect on my game as the preceding.

Anyhow, I'm pretty happy with my game now, though when it comes to tournaments, the best I've done so far is to come in the top 14%, which means out of the money.

I'm wondering if anyone could have a look at a few of my PT stats and tell me where I can improve, and if my game is ready to move up to the next level. That said, though, I have no intention of moving up to $10NL unless I have a $300 'roll.

Here's hoping that this link works: http://photobucket.com/albums/c300/J...2NLResults.jpg

Oh, it seems rather contrived, that $50.00 amount, but it's absolutely how it added up after my last session. Most bizarre, I thought, but anyhow.

I know that there are a few more people who's names I'm forgetting at the moment, but thanks to all of you who've taken the time for me since I've been here, and for what I think has been my first tangible step towards becoming a good poker player.

Though, maybe you'll disagree after you see my stats!

Jigs

P.S. I know 8000, is not enough, but I promised myself to report on my results after that number was attained.

[Miffed22001]

If from 8k hands your win rate is 0.62 per 100 and you have turned profit thats cool.
I can understand thats what stats would look like at 2nl but if you now feel you have yor poker under control, eh no alcohol, few tilt sessions and you have 17-20 buy ins for 10nl id encourage you to move up!
I think you're on the right track so keep it up.

[Jiggus]

... and you have 17-20 buy ins for 10nl id encourage you to move up!
I think you're on the right track so keep it up.

Thanks mate. However, I triple table. That's why I reckon 300 bucks is more psychologically comfortable. I risk 3 buy-ins at once.

I used to play $10NL here and there and I have dabbled in it a bit recently, but when I lose 5 bucks, it really stings me whereas at the cheap tables 5 bucks is 2.5 full buy-ins!

There is the old adage about nothing ventured nothing gained, I suppose, but now I realise that when I play scared I play badly. I'm sure that there are other players on the site who feel that a bigger 'roll is better for their psychological comfort zone, no?

[Irisheyes]

I don't have PT so I dont understand some of the terms there but most of it looks fine to me.

I gotta say though I think you should really consider moving up to 10NL. I know your confidence wont be as good there and whatever but I just think you are really holding yourself back.

Lay it out logically in your head:
o They play there will not be much different and you are crushing 2NL. You will make at least 10ptBB/100 at 10NL.
o The cards are the same
o Etc. etc. Everything is the same, just the bets are x5.
o There is nothing to stop you moving back down if you hit a bad run.
o The chance you will hit a 15 buy-in bad run is really tiny.
o Stats or no stats, you know you are a winning player.
o I don't think 3 tableing increaces variance much.
o You can 1 table 10NL for a little while until you are more comfortable.
o You can 1 table 10NL still make more then you make now at 2NL.

So there is nothing that can go wrong as long as you try really hard not to tilt. You gave up the drink so you can do this with a little effort.

I think moving up will increase the pressure and make you improve your game. I don't think being able to loose 2 buyins casually is nesseccerily a good thing. It means your over-rolled and getting lax.

At least give it some serious consideration.

[Jiggus]

Thank you, Irich, for taking the time to advise me.

Maybe I'll try it a bit more regularly at the $10NL. Indeed, it would make for more bountiful rewards!

I'll keep you posted.

Jigs

[Miffed22001]

Good luck
Good call though on the tilt-like play. If your not comfortable wit hthe amount you wager then dont move up until you feel you are or that it wont concern you too much.
But as before you thoughts on the game now look positive so gl!

[r8ed]

A couple things to consider.

First, I'm not sure how I helped anyone on here except to tell them to listen to AOK.

15BB/100 is excellent. I had a rate that high at around the same number or hands. Then it dropped down mainly due to variance. I was getting Aces called all-in preflop, I was hitting sets left and right and cashing in. Then the opposite happened. Everyone folded to my preflop bets when I had AA/KK and called my preflop bets when I had AQ. Barely hit sets and when I did no payoff. So, if you take a downturn playing the same way don't freak out.

Your VP$IP seems a little low. Others may disagree, but I think you need to limp some more hands from the SB or button. Hands like suited connectors and Axs and AT. These are hands that you should be willing to lay down easily post flop. If you move up and your BB/100 rate stays around the same, then don't do anything, but if you notice action on your preflop raises dries up, then try it out. The higher the limit the more people start to notice you are super tight (not many people but more than do now).

I also noticed that when I moved to 4 tables, I didn't do as well as 3. I moved back to 3 recently. I can pay more attention to who's doing what.

I suggest you move up but play 2 tables at first. One table will be too boring and you are already used to 3. So 2 should be good for you. If you do well, then go to 3 tables again.

Doesn't it seem like such a joke that you were losing before? It's so very simple to make money playing tight and sticking to it. Good luck and post your stats when you hit 10k hands. Hopefully your BB/100 stays the same but your BB/hr goes up

[Jiggus]

Thanks R8ed.

I can tell you how you helped. It was on the edudlive forum, I recall. You squared me away on how to properly use the continuation bet. I was betting way to timidly post flop and getting called most of the time. Pot-sized bets when you don't hit the flop are much more useful than 1/2 the pot bets.

I was starting to consider playing more hands when I move up to the next limit, but at the risk of sounding drone-like, that would fly in the face of Aok's starting hand strategy.

As you say, though, perhaps a bit more from the SB would be a good experiment.

As I said, I'll keep FTR posted.

Thanks again to all who've been so kind with advice.

Jigs

[biondino]

I don't think you're raising enough pre-flop, you're not playing quite enough hands - you seem a bit weak-tight from those stats. HOWEVER it's a helathy way to start off and it's clearly working for you. Your W%SD is very impressive for such low limits.

[Jiggus]

I don't think you're raising enough pre-flop, you're not playing quite enough hands - you seem a bit weak-tight from those stats. HOWEVER it's a helathy way to start off and it's clearly working for you. Your W%SD is very impressive for such low limits.

Thanks Mr. B. I appreciate you guys taking the time for this.

Yes, interesting what you say about "weak-tight". PT auto-rates me as Tight/Passive/Passive (a Mouse), but before I switched to this style -- based on the 19 hand starting strategy and Aok's advice of, "Look for reasons to fold", -- I was rated as a Rock: Tight/Passive/Aggressive. But I was losing then.

It seems to me that I actually raise more now post flop, but since I'm not seeing as many hands, perhaps that's why my pre-flop raise % is so low.

Hey, I'm glad you saw that showdown stat. I thought that was pretty good, but it's nice when someone says so.

However, I suspect that at the next level, I'll have to throw in a few changes so I'm not so predictible. Anyone with PT and GT+ will soon know what starting hands I play.

[slickslack]

However, I suspect that at the next level, I'll have to throw in a few changes so I'm not so predictible. Anyone with PT and GT+ will soon know what starting hands I play.

Nah, you won't need to change a thing at 10NL. I ran that same 19 hand game and made 15BB/100 doing it. It wasn't until 25NL that I found it broke down a bit. You can still use it but your BB/100 will suffer. As you said, people start to notice that you don't raise much, and get out of your way when you do. The solution I found, was to start opening with a raise when it's been folded to you for some of the hands you've been limping in with. AJ, KQ, some PP, just keeping in mind not to press them too hard if your c-bet is called as you are easily dominated with the first two and the PP you are still wanting to play mostly for a set although if the board comes down low, you may still have the best hand.

Great stats by the way! Doesn't it feel great to turn your game around like that?

[EasyT]

Raise more pre-flop.

If you're sticking to the top 19 starting hands anyway, you really ought to come in for a raise with half of those hands from most positions. You only pre-flop raised 2.71%. Raise the same amount with AK, AQ as you do with AA if it's limped/folded to you. You need to disguise your hands by doing this and you'll win more money...getting your AA paid off, and getting extra bets from these hands when they hit. If you get one opponent, fire a continuation bet even if you miss with AK, AQ...you probably still have the best hand even if you miss (how confident is the guy with pocket 5s going to feel on ANY flop missing his 5?)

EasyT.

Edit to add: Your attempts to steal the blinds is ZERO. This is probably ok when the blinds are only pennies...not worth picking up. But as you move up, those steals amount to real money, AND help you get action on your pat hands.

[r8ed]

Thanks R8ed.

I can tell you how you helped. It was on the edudlive forum, I recall. You squared me away on how to properly use the continuation bet. I was betting way to timidly post flop and getting called most of the time. Pot-sized bets when you don't hit the flop are much more useful than 1/2 the pot bets.

I was starting to consider playing more hands when I move up to the next limit, but at the risk of sounding drone-like, that would fly in the face of Aok's starting hand strategy.

As you say, though, perhaps a bit more from the SB would be a good experiment.

As I said, I'll keep FTR posted.

Thanks again to all who've been so kind with advice.

Jigs

Oh, OK. I haven't been in here that much, that's why I was confused. I actually don't do pot sized bets all the time when I miss if I feel 1/2 pot will do it. For a while I switched to 1/2 every time and was actually losing money. So, I'm varying between 1/2 to full based on table conditions. I wouldn't change anything until you notice people react differently.

And don't worry about being a mouse, it's not that much different than rock. I'd rather be a mouse and 15BB/100 than a rock and 5BB/100. You seem like a patient player - which is good at lower levels in cash games. Once you have huge bankroll you can afford to open up. Keep up the good work.

[Jiggus]

Raise more pre-flop.

If you're sticking to the top 19 starting hands anyway, you really ought to come in for a raise with half of those hands from most positions. You only pre-flop raised 2.71%. Raise the same amount with AK, AQ as you do with AA if it's limped/folded to you. You need to disguise your hands by doing this and you'll win more money...getting your AA paid off, and getting extra bets from these hands when they hit. If you get one opponent, fire a continuation bet even if you miss with AK, AQ...you probably still have the best hand even if you miss (how confident is the guy with pocket 5s going to feel on ANY flop missing his 5?)

Again, thanks to you all for the replies. In relation to the above, quote, though, I will raise, AQ if the pot is unraised however, I always use the same sized bet which is 6XBB for all my pre-flop raises. Occasionally, I'll just limp in with AK because I find that to be a hand that you get easily burned with.

Yes, I always continuation bet when I miss my flop with AK, AQ, BUT I do get very nervous if I have raised JJ, QQ or KK preflop and then an Ace falls on the flop.

You know someone ALWAYS has an ace.

Jigs

P.S. I can't believe someone said my stats were great. If I'd show you my ofther limits you'd laugh!

[Jiggus]

It didn't take long for this to happen. Two sessions at the $10 tables saw me losing 40 bucks. No, I didn't change my game from the lower limits, just bad cards and bad luck. Well, maybe I shouldn't have called the all-in pre-flop with my JJ, but that was my first playable starting hand in the session.

Anyhow, in those two sessions I lost ALL my gains. I mean, it took me SIX weeks to recover from 110 bucks up to 150 and now I'm down to 117.

Needless to say, I am going back to the $2 tables and staying there until I scrape up to $350. Well, maybe $300, but no less. And if I win the Big Buck at Paradise, that'll just speed up the process.

Oh, just so for the record: 316 hands at $10, lost 32 bucks, -51 BB/100.

I realise it's a piddly amount of hands, but it has, nonetheless, shattered my confidence, hence my ability to play at this limit.

[satan1974]

Jiggus - This is exactly where I was about a month ago. I was scared to move up the limits even though I knew I was playing (at worst) break even poker. I dipped my toe in the water a few times at $10nl, lost, and scurried back down to the $2nl tables.

The problem though, as you are experiencing, is that variance will always exist. If you move up a level and hit a downward swing, it's going to take you 5 times as long to recover if you do this by dropping a level every time.

This is why 1) you need to be bankrolled properly so you aren't scared of the downswing at the higher level, and 2) you need to make yourself become confident.

The 2nd part is obviously easier said than done but this is how I did it.

1) I sat for an hour and watched the mega high limit games. $2000NL. Just about every pot was bigger than my entire bankroll. Watch this for an hour then immediately throw yourself in to a $10nl game and realise how tiny the stakes are.

2) Play the game using multiples of the bb at both your lower and higher limit. Thinking in dollars is a real psychological barrier. If you think "He has raised me 4xbb" then it's the same at both levels. Think that "He has just raised me $5!" and you suddenly realise that this is 5 times more than at the lower levels and you play differently to how you normally would.

I got to $10nl and then was stuck there - I couldn't make the jump to $25nl! Now I don't play at anything lower than $25nl and have started dipping my toe in to $50nl.

[Jiggus]

Thanks for that, Satan. Can I just call you Beezlebub?

I realise that it's variance, however, I cannot afford this variance at the moment. At least not psychologically. I wonder if I should just damn the torpedoes and go for it?

I, like you, have a family and tons of future worries like moving to Scotland to worry, about which precludes me from wantonly tapping into Mr. Visa for another couple hun.

[Wistul look as he reminisces about pre-family, pre-big mortgage days of plenty o' cash in hand].

I am impressed by how quickly you moved up, by the way. I believe that I've been playing a lot longer (more than 2 years), which speaks volumes about how crappy I am.

What is the advice now, though? It would appear that my $150 'roll -- now depleted to $117 -- is simply not sufficient for anything but $2. I have little choice but to play there again. It's such a slog.

Starting to get depressed,... Going for a run.

[Irisheyes]

Well that didn't go to well. Hard luck Jig. I think now your best bet is to stick at 2NL because if you "just go for it" I can see you tilting the whole thing away. I say get back to $150 and try again at 10NL.

Does anyone know a site with higher then 2NL lower then 10NL stakes? Something like $5 tables.

Also calling all in with JJ is not good, AA KK are the only call AI hands.

Read "The psychology of loosing" again and hey, look on the bright side, in Scotland you'll be that little bit closer to me!

[Jiggus]

Can I take it from your reference to me being closer to you once I'm in Scotland, that you are, in fact, based in Ireland, iRICHeyes?

Strange, but I was just going to post "I've answered my own question,..." when I saw your reply. Thank you.

I went back to playing $2, then said, "Aw, go on, give it another shot,..."

Went up with less than the $10 buy in, and promptly lost what I brought in by pushing it all in with top pair. Of course, someone had trips.

But instead of tilting, I said, "OK, back to the drawing board."

Went back to my comfort zone and made up 3X the buy in at one table and quit, feeling somewhat positive.

The point on the JJ push is well taken. Noted in my note book.

Interesting point to all this, and one which would fall well under the Circle of Death subject, is that I actually could feel my game going south simply because I did not feel comfortable with my small 'roll.

I knew that raising my stack with only top pair was daft, but I did it. It is a strange phenomenon, and I suppose that some can cope with small 'rolls better than I, witnessed by the tales of guys starting at $25 NL with 50 bucks and making a go of it.

More in a few thousand more hands.

Jigs

[Irisheyes]

I just thought of something. How about you set a base line of $120 and keep playing 2NL. Every time you get to $130 you play a 10NL game, buying in for the full $10. If you loose it then your back at $120 again and you drop back to 2NL untill you get back up to $130. You can play 10NL with anything you have over $120.