winning 42 x the buyin 50NL

[siknd]

while searching 50NL tables at UB on Monday, i came across a guy sitting with $2100. wow.

i was wondering how long it would take to rack of that amount of profits and what kind of person would continue to sit in a game with that amount of money and how a game would last that long without the table breaking up etc etc.

my only plausible scenario is that someone left a 'bot' on over the weekend.

?

how many ppl believe bots are being used, how would you recognize one if you did, and what are the sites doing to protect their players?

[PokerPatNEU]

I don't think there's any bot good enough to win that much money in any length of time. A smart player observing the person sitting on 20+ buy ins and suspected a bot would be able to find a way to beat it. Can you use the all-in reload exploit at UB? I've seen a lot of enormous stacks at Stars that are the results of all in reloading. Even an amazing player on a really hot run of cards would have a hard time accumulating that stack without some kind of trick, just because of the hours it would require. Most people can't play for 20+ hours without going crazy or just falling asleep at your keyboard.

[johnny_fish]

The max I've seen so far is about 150 by a LAG on a 20NL table. I managed to get >100 a few times during a 4-5 hour session. I've never seen >200 at the 50NL.. (Prima)

[ilikeaces86]

I once got to 800 at the old 25NL on PP

[r8ed]

I once got to 800 at the old 25NL on PP

What do you do different once you get over 4xbuyin at those tables? Inrease your preflop raise amount? Push preflop any time you get a top 10 hand?

[Pelion]

Why do you need to do something different? As long as other people dont have huge stacks as well a hand that ends in an all-in will still only win/lose you 1 buyin so why do you need to make preflop raises bigger?
Or do you just mean trying to bully the table?

[r8ed]

I figure they are doing some bullying at some point.

[cryptyk]

You could do this pretty easily if you have 2 accounts. Just have your 2 people sit, have the loser bet pre-flop all-in, less 1$, have the hero raise the loser and have the loser fold. No flop, no drop. Then reload the loser.

Never tried it, but I think that would work.

FWIW, I've been over $200 a couple different times at NL50.

[EricE]

You could do this pretty easily if you have 2 accounts. Just have your 2 people sit, have the loser bet pre-flop all-in, less 1$, have the hero raise the loser and have the loser fold. No flop, no drop. Then reload the loser.

Never tried it, but I think that would work.

FWIW, I've been over $200 a couple different times at NL50.

Yeah, I saw that happen last night and I was like "WTF". One guy went all in but for $.10. He folded on the river to a bet then left the table.

[Fnord]

8ish buy-ins is pretty easy. Inevitable in a good live game.

Some players will build 2,3,4x stacks off the guys busting and re-buying. Then 2 of the big stacks will often run into each other and create the monster stack. Easy 8x stack.

[EricE]

8ish buy-ins is pretty easy.

Maybe for you!

[Greedo017]

i've gotten to 400+ at 50 nl multiple times

[Lukie]

I once got to 800 at the old 25NL on PP

What do you do different once you get over 4xbuyin at those tables? Inrease your preflop raise amount? Push preflop any time you get a top 10 hand?

Come on man, use some common sense.

Are you going to push 3000BB on AQs?

edit: also realize that the betting is capped by the 2nd largest stack.

[r8ed]

I once got to 800 at the old 25NL on PP

What do you do different once you get over 4xbuyin at those tables? Inrease your preflop raise amount? Push preflop any time you get a top 10 hand?

Come on man, use some common sense.

Are you going to push 3000BB on AQs?

edit: also realize that the betting is capped by the 2nd largest stack.

I'm not suggesting doing this, I'm asking how if at all people play differently. And like you mention, you aren't risking more than the largest stack to call. I usually just play the same way - maybe a little looser - like limping Axs from MP.

[siknd]

ANYway, as per the original question, i saw someone sit down with over 1000 last night, so there is some trick to it. i asked the guy about it but he jsut gave me a gay wink. whatever.

[Miffed22001]

400 at 20nl on prima for me
2k on one table sounds frightening

[arkana]

I know they have an uncapped buy-in table, are you sure he wasn't sitting at that table?

[Lukie]

I once got to 800 at the old 25NL on PP

What do you do different once you get over 4xbuyin at those tables? Inrease your preflop raise amount? Push preflop any time you get a top 10 hand?

Come on man, use some common sense.

Are you going to push 3000BB on AQs?

edit: also realize that the betting is capped by the 2nd largest stack.

I'm not suggesting doing this, I'm asking how if at all people play differently. And like you mention, you aren't risking more than the largest stack to call. I usually just play the same way - maybe a little looser - like limping Axs from MP.

In deep stacked games, protecting your stack is far more important then protecting your hand. I'm not recommending that you go into a shell and play like a super-rock, but you have to realize that other deep stacked players are looking for ways to get your stack, not small pots here and there. You are probably doing the same to them. There's no reason to put all your money in the middle unless you are confident you have the best of it.

[ProZachNation]

If you can do something like thats whats even the point of a MTT. lol

[Irisheyes]

In deep stacked games, protecting your stack is far more important then protecting your hand.

Could someone please explain this too me. Surely a +EV decision is a +EV decision weather you have a 10 buyin stack or a one buyin stack, you want to make the most money you can from a positive expectation situation. If you want to protect your stack leave the table.

[Lukie]

In deep stacked games, protecting your stack is far more important then protecting your hand.

Could someone please explain this too me. Surely a +EV decision is a +EV decision weather you have a 10 buyin stack or a one buyin stack, you want to make the most money you can from a positive expectation situation. If you want to protect your stack leave the table.

I disagree here strongly, but I'm about to get something to eat so I don't want to get involved here too much. I'll just put out an example.

Suppose you are playing a tight-agressive game, and you pick up a SC in late position.. say 6d 7d.. with an early position limper. You both have a 1000xBB stack. You change it up for a bit and play it agressively raising to 4xBB. You get a call behind you from the button and everybody folds except the limper, who calls. Flop comes rags with 2 diamonds. Limper checks to you, you make a c-bet, button folds. EP limper calls. Turn is a blank. Check-bet-call. River brings a diamond, and both of you guys start betting like crazy. Bet-raise-raise, you get the point.

More then likely, you are going to put your stack into the hand if you have 1 buyin, but are you going to risk 10 buyins here when his action makes it almost certain that you are beat?

[badandy519]

Hey, we can turn this into another AA vs KK thread. Let's say you're sitting there with 10x buyins and KK in LP. You re raise a 4x BB raise from EP (who has something like 6 buy ins) to 15x and he reraises you to 50x BB. How sure are you that he has AA and how much are you willing to gamble 5 or 6 buy ins on that?

[Lukie]

Hey, we can turn this into another AA vs KK thread. Let's say you're sitting there with 10x buyins and KK in LP. You re raise a 4x BB raise from EP (who has something like 6 buy ins) to 15x and he reraises you to 50x BB. How sure are you that he has AA and how much are you willing to gamble 5 or 6 buy ins on that?

Lol, I was going to say basically the same thing but I hate the KK v AA debates. Against a tight, solid player the only hand I'm AI preflop with is AA. I'm not saying I'm folding KK though.. a call for set value in this situation makes a lot more sense.

[Irisheyes]

You have Ac Jd
Opp has Kh 7s

Cards face up.
Both have 10 buyin stacks.
Opp pushes all in.

Call/Fold?

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win      lose  %lose       tie   %tie        EV
Ac Jd 1096240  64.02    610378  35.65      5686   0.33     0.642
7s Kh  610378  35.65   1096240  64.02      5686   0.33     0.358

[Irisheyes]

Hey, we can turn this into another AA vs KK thread. Let's say you're sitting there with 10x buyins and KK in LP. You re raise a 4x BB raise from EP (who has something like 6 buy ins) to 15x and he reraises you to 50x BB. How sure are you that he has AA and how much are you willing to gamble 5 or 6 buy ins on that?

...and if you think for a while and decide that there is a 75% chance that he doesn't have AA. What do you do? Do you like making 5 or 6 buyins in one hand?

[Lukie]

You have Ac Jd
Opp has Kh 7s

Cards face up.
Both have 10 buyin stacks.
Opp pushes all in.

Call/Fold?

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win      lose  %lose       tie   %tie        EV
Ac Jd 1096240  64.02    610378  35.65      5686   0.33     0.642
7s Kh  610378  35.65   1096240  64.02      5686   0.33     0.358

Are you kidding? Easy call all day long.

[Rondavu]

As the size of your stack increases, you start looking for reasons to fold against other big stacks. I've lost 8 buy ins with KK vs 99 on a 349 rainbow.

[HeavyP]

AJ vs K7 face up and he goes all in. I don't think I can call there. I don't like going into situations when it's only 60 - 40 when it's for all my stack (Assuming I can outplay all of my opponents). If I was at a table and Phil Ivey pushes all into me and shows me k7 then I call. If it's some players I know I can out play then I fold and find a better spot.

[siknd]

BOTS! goddamnit people, we need to be afraid of the bots! we have lost sight of the important issue here... K7 is not the issue!

[Lukie]

AJ vs K7 face up and he goes all in. I don't think I can call there. I don't like going into situations when it's only 60 - 40 when it's for all my stack (Assuming I can outplay all of my opponents). If I was at a table and Phil Ivey pushes all into me and shows me k7 then I call. If it's some players I know I can out play then I fold and find a better spot.

Might as well quit poker now..

Getting all your money into the middle with a 60-40 advantage IS outplaying your opponent.

[HeavyP]

If I can outplay them post flop why would I get myself in that situation? Getting in a 60/40 situation is letting the cards do the playing for you. If I can OUT PLAY them then I can find better spots to take all there money. If I feel I cannot outplay the opponent then I will take it.

[Fnord]

If I can outplay them post flop why would I get myself in that situation? Getting in a 60/40 situation is letting the cards do the playing for you. If I can OUT PLAY them then I can find better spots to take all there money. If I feel I cannot outplay the opponent then I will take it.

If it's a cash game, I'll put any sum of money I would have on the table into a 60/40. A lot of people over-estimate how big poker edges are.

[HeavyP]

If I'm sitting at a table rounders style with 25k in front of me and that's all I can play with then I obviously fold. If I'm sitting at .10/.20 cent no limit and someone pushes me into 10$ then I call. Obviously how many buy ins you have and what limits have to come into play.

[siknd]

the point is (since we cant discuss bots) tht you should be willing to accept good odds every time. its the fund theorum of poker. EVERY time. thats the game. you need to be risk neutral. figure out if youre ahead and if so youre in. behind, out. and again and again etc etc.

full stop.

[Iwind]

More impressed by the guy I saw at the 10k table at Full Tilt a few days ago. Dustin Dirksen, $150,000 stack He always seems to have a huge stack on that table.

[Irisheyes]

You have Ac Jd
Opp has Kh 7s

Cards face up.
Both have 10 buyin stacks.
Opp pushes all in.

Call/Fold?

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win      lose  %lose       tie   %tie        EV
Ac Jd 1096240  64.02    610378  35.65      5686   0.33     0.642
7s Kh  610378  35.65   1096240  64.02      5686   0.33     0.358

Are you kidding? Easy call all day long.

But according to your earlier post this could possibly be a fold because you want to protect your 10 buyin stack.

So where do you draw the line? 55 - 45? 51 - 49? How much does the desire to protect your stack skew the basic win percentages I quoted above?

[Irisheyes]

As the size of your stack increases, you start looking for reasons to fold against other big stacks.

Part of the reason you want a big stack at a table is so that you have the other stacks covered. That means that when you are involved in a situation where your opponent is all in against you and he looses you add to your stack the total ammount of his stack, you don't just double up by one buyin (assuming the opponent has a >1 buyin stack).

Looking for reasons to fold, outside of your usuall play strategy, cancels out this bigger doubling up effect of the big stack. It is, quite simply, fear of the chips is it not?

I've lost 8 buy ins with KK vs 99 on a 349 rainbow.

You also (possibly) had the chance to make 8 buyins against QQ in the same situation.


I'm just trying to stimulate constructive discussion here by the way.

[Irisheyes]

BOTS! goddamnit people, we need to be afraid of the bots! we have lost sight of the important issue here... K7 is not the issue!

Sorry for the hijack dude. I would start a new thread but this thing kinda took off in here.

By the way I think a human would have a greater chance of achieving a 42 buyin stack then a bot. I don't think its that unbelievable that someone could do it.

[arkana]

BOTS! goddamnit people, we need to be afraid of the bots! we have lost sight of the important issue here... K7 is not the issue!

I know they have an uncapped buy-in table, are you sure he wasn't sitting at that table?

[arkana]

As the size of your stack increases, you start looking for reasons to fold against other big stacks.

Not exactly, but your strategy should change.
Implied odds+++

[johnny_fish]

By the way I think a human would have a greater chance of achieving a 42 buyin stack then a bot. I don't think its that unbelievable that someone could do it.

Yeah, just run a 85hr 40BB/100 session. WTF?

[Irisheyes]

By the way I think a human would have a greater chance of achieving a 42 buyin stack then a bot. I don't think its that unbelievable that someone could do it.

Yeah, just run a 85hr 40BB/100 session. WTF?

Did you work this out?

A bot cannot play more hands per hour at one table then a person can, or at even close to the same win rate for that matter . How do you know its not a number of people playing continously on the one account?

Or an unlimited table as Arkana suggested?

Are you sure there is no all-in rebuy trick as someone else suggested?

[Rondavu]

As the size of your stack increases, you start looking for reasons to fold against other big stacks.

Part of the reason you want a big stack at a table is so that you have the other stacks covered. That means that when you are involved in a situation where your opponent is all in against you and he looses you add to your stack the total ammount of his stack, you don't just double up by one buyin (assuming the opponent has a >1 buyin stack).

Looking for reasons to fold, outside of your usuall play strategy, cancels out this bigger doubling up effect of the big stack. It is, quite simply, fear of the chips is it not?

I agree to a certain extent. It's not that I'm looking for reasons to fold as much as NOT going deep with TPTK or something silly. Think about it like this. Another big stack isn't going to go deep with one pair. Neither should you without a VERY tight read. Two single buy in stacks are going deep all day with a wide range of pairs and draws. When your stack grows, hands with other big stacks need to grow away from heavy risk. If you find another big stack picking on you over the issue, then obviously you need to make a stand. Otherwise don't tangle deep without a solid hand.

I've lost 8 buy ins with KK vs 99 on a 349 rainbow.

You also (possibly) had the chance to make 8 buyins against QQ in the same situation.


I'm just trying to stimulate constructive discussion here by the way.

First of all don't worry about offending me with critique. I'm learning just as you are. I invite constructive discussion. In regards to the QQ statement. Could they just as easily have QQ in this spot? They raise 5xBB preflop. You make it 15xBB to go. They smooth call and the flop is a rag rainbow. Is your opponent just as willing to go deep with QQ here with a big stack than a smaller one? I think not given your preflop representation. A lot has to do with your read of course. Maniacs and idiots build stacks too, but you need to have that read. I made the mistake of not respecting my opponents skill, and hence caution factor with a big stack. I should have known he knew what I had, and when he started drilling, the red flags should have popped.

[Rondavu]

If I can outplay them post flop why would I get myself in that situation? Getting in a 60/40 situation is letting the cards do the playing for you. If I can OUT PLAY them then I can find better spots to take all there money. If I feel I cannot outplay the opponent then I will take it.

I agree with this. I'm not trying to polarize myself with you Fnord. I swear. I just really agree with what he said. I heard a top pro once say something similar to this...

"So and so just stepped onto the table. So and so is the best player I've ever seen. If I sit with So and so too long at this table he'll grind my stack off into his own, because good players destack you over time. They outplay you over and over and over. They pass by the coinflips to exploit you, since exploiting you is inevitable at a cash table where no sense of urgency exists."

It's not Verbatum, but the integrity of the concept remains. If you're the best player at the table, you give something away by racing with a perceived small edge for a big chunk of chips. Is it correct to put it all in on a 60/40? Of course it's correct. Should you do it for a large risk if you're clearly better than the other players at the table? NEVER.

Imagine for a moment you're playing poker with 13 year olds. Pot after pot grinds away and your stack grows and grows. You see one of the kids cards and it's K8. You hold AJ. He says all in, and has a big stack from a hot run void of any real skill that could seriously damage you. Do you call? I never would, because then he might leave if he wins. I'd rather grind him off based on the obvious skill edge.

Also, think about why you race with AJ at the end of a tournament, but never the beginning. At the end you're finding a quick edge. At the beginning you're grinding up. The beginning of a tournament is more similar to cash game.

[Irisheyes]

As the size of your stack increases, you start looking for reasons to fold against other big stacks.

Part of the reason you want a big stack at a table is so that you have the other stacks covered. That means that when you are involved in a situation where your opponent is all in against you and he looses you add to your stack the total ammount of his stack, you don't just double up by one buyin (assuming the opponent has a >1 buyin stack).

Looking for reasons to fold, outside of your usuall play strategy, cancels out this bigger doubling up effect of the big stack. It is, quite simply, fear of the chips is it not?

I agree to a certain extent. It's not that I'm looking for reasons to fold as much as NOT going deep with TPTK or something silly. Think about it like this. Another big stack isn't going to go deep with one pair. Neither should you without a VERY tight read. Two single buy in stacks are going deep all day with a wide range of pairs and draws. When your stack grows, hands with other big stacks need to grow away from heavy risk. If you find another big stack picking on you over the issue, then obviously you need to make a stand. Otherwise don't tangle deep without a solid hand.

OK, I can understand this a bit alright. I'm still weird on the issue of a play being good with a small stack and not so good with a big stack.

I've lost 8 buy ins with KK vs 99 on a 349 rainbow.

You also (possibly) had the chance to make 8 buyins against QQ in the same situation.


I'm just trying to stimulate constructive discussion here by the way.

First of all don't worry about offending me with critique. I'm learning just as you are. I invite constructive discussion. In regards to the QQ statement. Could they just as easily have QQ in this spot? They raise 5xBB preflop. You make it 15xBB to go. They smooth call and the flop is a rag rainbow. Is your opponent just as willing to go deep with QQ here with a big stack than a smaller one? I think not given your preflop representation. A lot has to do with your read of course. Maniacs and idiots build stacks too, but you need to have that read. I made the mistake of not respecting my opponents skill, and hence caution factor with a big stack. I should have known he knew what I had, and when he started drilling, the red flags should have popped.

True, but I wasn't really considering preflop action etc. I was really trying to make the point that being afraid to loose 8 buyins could hamper your ability to make 8 buyins.

[Rondavu]

I was really trying to make the point that being afraid to loose 8 buyins could hamper your ability to make 8 buyins.

Well you know what they say about scared money. I would never condone that. I understand your point completely.

[BankItDrew]

It is possible to have 42xBB without a bot. Big stacks colliding, 24hr playing.... etc.

That being said, bots do get used. What sites do to protect their players is by sending the suspected bots messeges that request them to type in the characters in the field. Characters such as JJ37FVAS9 in a mixed up hand messed up hand written sort of way. Kind of like the characters you have to type in when you sign up for an e-mail account with some providers.

[Lukie]

If I can outplay them post flop why would I get myself in that situation? Getting in a 60/40 situation is letting the cards do the playing for you. If I can OUT PLAY them then I can find better spots to take all there money. If I feel I cannot outplay the opponent then I will take it.

If it's a cash game, I'll put any sum of money I would have on the table into a 60/40. A lot of people over-estimate how big poker edges are.

quoted for truth

If you can't put all your money in knowing you are a 60/40 favorite, you are playing with scared money and need to move down in stakes.

[Lukie]

You have Ac Jd
Opp has Kh 7s

Cards face up.
Both have 10 buyin stacks.
Opp pushes all in.

Call/Fold?

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win      lose  %lose       tie   %tie        EV
Ac Jd 1096240  64.02    610378  35.65      5686   0.33     0.642
7s Kh  610378  35.65   1096240  64.02      5686   0.33     0.358

Are you kidding? Easy call all day long.

But according to your earlier post this could possibly be a fold because you want to protect your 10 buyin stack.

So where do you draw the line? 55 - 45? 51 - 49? How much does the desire to protect your stack skew the basic win percentages I quoted above?

My earlier post was based on the assumption that it was a normal poker situation where you don't actually see your opponents cards. 60-40 (actually 64-36 in this case) is an absolutely enormous edge in a cash game. The only real legitimite argument I can think of for folding here would be a situation like this:

You brought enough money for 1 buyin to a game. Not that you don't have the BR to back this move up, but lets say you go on vacation and you only have enough money for 1 buy-in. You build it up, and if you lose it all here, you are done. This is still a trivially easy call for me unless the competition is so absolutely terrible that you are even more confident in your ability to destack them another time. In reality, a situation like this just doesn't happen very often and a fold still isn't correct poker, but may be the right decision for other factors.

What I meant by protecting your stack in a deep-stacked game is pretty much realizing that implied odds are huge. Quite simply, you are going to need a better hand to back 1000BB on then you are with 100BB. That should be common sense. It has nothing to do with passing up opportunities like a faceup AJ vs K7 and has everything to do with realizing your opponent is probably a competent player as he is also a big stack and isn't taking it to the felt without a big hand.

If you have AA with 1 buy-in, are you losing your stack to a set? Maybe.
If you have AA with 10 buy-ins, are you losing your stack to a set? I hope not..

[Lukie]

If I can outplay them post flop why would I get myself in that situation? Getting in a 60/40 situation is letting the cards do the playing for you. If I can OUT PLAY them then I can find better spots to take all there money. If I feel I cannot outplay the opponent then I will take it.

Imagine for a moment you're playing poker with 13 year olds. Pot after pot grinds away and your stack grows and grows. You see one of the kids cards and it's K8. You hold AJ. He says all in, and has a big stack from a hot run void of any real skill that could seriously damage you. Do you call? I never would, because then he might leave if he wins. I'd rather grind him off based on the obvious skill edge.

Also, think about why you race with AJ at the end of a tournament, but never the beginning. At the end you're finding a quick edge. At the beginning you're grinding up. The beginning of a tournament is more similar to cash game.

HeavyP: First of all, you are better then 60/40 here, but for argument's sake we will just say 60/40. Getting in a 60/40 situation is not letting the cards play for you. The money is in when you are a 3:2 favorite. Just because I love numbers, lets say this situation comes up 5000 times in your poker career. You win 3000 times and lose 2000 times. You just accumulated 1000 extra stacks. Say you play 1000 NL.. you get the point.

I guess my point is that the cards ALWAYS have something to do with it. Are you going to fold AA to 27o because the cards are doing the playing? Of course not. Granted the edge isn't as big if you are 60/40, but I just don't see how it's justifiable to pass up that kind of an edge..

"Also, think about why you race with AJ at the end of a tournament, but never the beginning. At the end you're finding a quick edge. At the beginning you're grinding up. The beginning of a tournament is more similar to cash game."

- I agree with you in that the beginning of a tournament is more like a cash game, but the reason you are more likely to race AJ at the end of the tournament is because of the pressure of the rapidly increasing blinds/antes that force players to make moves with much worse hands. If you had an edge with AJ in the beginning of a tournament, you should take it. At the beginning of a tournament though with more players playing tight, it's less likely that you will have an edge with AJ.

[Irisheyes]

I understand better now. I think the concept I was missing was that a player pushing a whole load of chips in the middle must have a huge hand behind it. The number of chips is an extra warning sign that something bad is going on in the hand and you should act accordingly to 'protect' the rest of your chips. I realise now that it has nothing to do with playing with scared money as I first thought.

Also bet sizes need not be scaled by stack sizes and there is something up when the opponent is jamming the pot with his full stack. 'Protecting your stack is taking action because you realise the above.

Thanks guys.

[Pingviini]

One good thing having a big stack compared to others at the table, especially at a short handed table, is that even if they double their 20BB stack thru you, eventually you will bust their asses if you just get descent cards against them. I have seen this happen so many times.. Get AI with KQ against AT a couple of times and it is more than likely that you will bust those shorties. Just hope they will buy-in for another 20BB. That doesnt mean that I dont like playing against other deep stacks. I will post one or two nice hands in my blog when I get home

That also goes against calling AI with a _small_ edge like 52-48 against another big stack (300BB+ or so). The point is that you cant automatically reload to 300BB if you lose. You will be stuck at 100BB against a guy of 600BB meaning that you will have hard time if he is descent.