How to spot 2 pair?

[Werddown]

One of the biggest problems I have is calling flop bets with TPTK all the way to the river and then finding out that the person hit 2 pair on the flop.

How can I tell if someone is betting their top pair and putting in continuation bets or betting their 2 pair?

I always lose big on it.

[a500lbgorilla]

In deep stack games, you should be more interested in protecting your stack over protecting your hand. It's a tricky buisness, but you have to make sure not to pay off when you hit a hand like TP while still extrating enough value from it so you're a winning player.

For low limits, it's usually true that you should become less aggressive on later streets (with deep stacks) and always hoping for a call/fold and never a raise. The fish are only playing their cards, when their hands get pretty, they raise. But until they get pretty, they love to just call.

-'rilla

Yeah, but when the fish think that A7 on a A82r board is pretty and bet it hard...

What can I do short of playing limit?

[Werddown]

Another quesiton I have that sort of relates to this one is:

When betting preflop out of position with high cards, getting a call or two, then getting a low flop.... What is a good size for a continuation bet? Half the pot? Pot-sized?

I'm having trouble forcing people out of the pot that have bottom pair or a weak draw, and when I try to show more strength, it seems like someone has always hit 2pair or their set and just slowplay my continuation bets like they are drawing.

[jukejointroach]

#1 x-ray specs.

#2 whatever sized bet is pushing people off that flop.

[Fnord]

In deep stack games, you should be more interested in protecting your stack over protecting your hand. It's a tricky buisness, but you have to make sure not to pay off when you hit a hand like TP while still extrating enough value from it so you're a winning player.

For low limits, it's usually true that you should become less aggressive on later streets (with deep stacks) and always hoping for a call/fold and never a raise. The fish are only playing their cards, when their hands get pretty, they raise. But until they get pretty, they love to just call.

Great post.

[boyobach]

In deep stack games, you should be more interested in protecting your stack over protecting your hand. It's a tricky buisness, but you have to make sure not to pay off when you hit a hand like TP while still extrating enough value from it so you're a winning player.

For low limits, it's usually true that you should become less aggressive on later streets (with deep stacks) and always hoping for a call/fold and never a raise. The fish are only playing their cards, when their hands get pretty, they raise. But until they get pretty, they love to just call.

Great post.

Yep. I reckon this pretty much sums it up.
TPTK is fundamentally a weak hand if somebody is showing aggression. I have learnt this the hard way.
If i believe the player who likes his hand is half-decent (or, if i have no read at all) then I am check calling this on 4th and 5th street.
Feels much better winning a small pot, than it does losing a big one

[boyobach]

Another quesiton I have that sort of relates to this one is:

When betting preflop out of position with high cards, getting a call or two, then getting a low flop.... What is a good size for a continuation bet? Half the pot? Pot-sized?

I'm having trouble forcing people out of the pot that have bottom pair or a weak draw, and when I try to show more strength, it seems like someone has always hit 2pair or their set and just slowplay my continuation bets like they are drawing.

I tend to do 2/3 pot when I miss the flop, but ALSO bet 2/3 pot when I hit the flop.
You don't want your opponents knowing "2/3 pot = missed flop".

[r8ed]

I always bet the pot when I miss and it's checked to me in position. If somebody bets before me, I fold. They beat me to it. I will usually check the pot when I'm OOP and miss unless I'm against one or two players and know they will most likely fold if they missed too. If that's the case it's the pot again. This seems to do the trick at 25NL. If you get reraised jut let it go.

I want to know where I stand on the flop whenever possible. It's easeir to put them on a hand when 3 cards are out rather than 4. I don't care if I take down a small pot because I take down many small pots with low risk.

This is all I do. Camp and take down small pots with low risk. I only need to hit a couple camped hands to make it all worthwhile.

[DogOnMySide]

I always bet the pot when I miss and it's checked to me in position. If somebody bets before me, I fold. They beat me to it. I will usually check the pot when I'm OOP and miss unless I'm against one or two players and know they will most likely fold if they missed too. If that's the case it's the pot again. This seems to do the trick at 25NL. If you get reraised jut let it go.

I want to know where I stand on the flop whenever possible. It's easeir to put them on a hand when 3 cards are out rather than 4. I don't care if I take down a small pot because I take down many small pots with low risk.

This is all I do. Camp and take down small pots with low risk. I only need to hit a couple camped hands to make it all worthwhile.

I play a lot like this if i put in a PFR... there are three scenarios that can happen...

i) you get a fold and win a small pot - result
ii) you get re-raised and (hopefully) fold, losing not much - result
iii) you get a call. this is where i tend to come a bit unstuck... on the turn, out of position, after 2 called raises.

Is this where you decide not to put any more money in this pot?
Do you look to "fire the 2nd barrel" or "drop the fucking hammer"?
Or do you check and judge your call based on the odds of his return bet?

The last seems the most sensible, but you might as well type "i dont care what cards you have, if you bet now i will fold" in the chat window.

I just realised this is a bit off topic. sorry.

[r8ed]

This is where you look at the opponent and what they did preflop. If they limped, then what hands would they limp with? If they raised or called a raise, then what hands would they do that with? TPTK isn't the greatest hand, so you don't want to pay too much more to find out you are most likely behind. There is no hard rule on what to do on the turn because this is where a read is critical. In general, if there is any type of draw on the flop, they may be chasing. In this case, I usually bet the turn. Why? Because two pair would have most likely reraised the flop to protect their hand. If the turn helped a draw, then 2 pair usually folds to your bet because they fear the draw hit for you. If the turn misses a draw, they may still fold thinking you had trips on the flop (not often but it happens). If they call or reraise you, look to check/fold the river. These are just some things to think about. Like I mentioned, reads are very critical once you reach the turn after they called the flop. TPTK is a hand that should be very easy to fold when you run into any aggression.