Playing the (not so stupid afterall) player ($.50/1)

[pantherhound]

This hand will probably cause a few differences in opinion. My game is now at the stage where I attack weakness where I see it, rather than suspect weakness but fold anyway. i trusted my read here, I knew I was ahead, nothing made sense about his betting. I didn't have him as a chaser. Did he have odds with his gutshot and flush draw on the turn, making me the stupid one for not betting more?

And now I feel I should have just given it up on the river, but $5 just looked so weak (the $1 short raise on the end was not deliberate, obviously).

------HAND 27------
Game #964590773: Texas Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1) - 2005/08/30 - 13:37:59 (UK)
Table "Paterson" Seat 4 is the button.
Seat 1: Zipper001 ($100 in chips)
Seat 2: DoN_O ($50 in chips)
Seat 3: Ressaway ($89 in chips)
Seat 4: Smiffy44 ($97.75 in chips)
Seat 5: Ian240219 ($79.50 in chips)
Seat 6: jackos990 ($48 in chips)
Ian240219: posts small blind $0.50
jackos990: posts big blind $1
Ressaway: posts small blind $0.50
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Smiffy44 [Jc 7s]
Zipper001: folds
Ressaway: folds
Smiffy44: calls $1
Ian240219: calls $0.50
jackos990: raises to $3
Smiffy44: calls $2
Ian240219: folds
----- FLOP ----- [Ts 7h 3h]
jackos990: bets $3
Smiffy44: raises to $8
jackos990: calls $5
----- TURN ----- [Ts 7h 3h][6s]
jackos990: checks
Smiffy44: bets $15
jackos990: calls $15
----- RIVER ----- [Ts 7h 3h 6s][9h]
jackos990: bets $5
Smiffy44: raises to $21
jackos990: raises to $22 and is all-in
Smiffy44: calls $1
----- SHOW DOWN -----
jackos990: shows [Kh 8h] (A Flush, King high)
Smiffy44: shows [Jc 7s] (A Pair of Sevens, Jack high)
jackos990 collected $94.50 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $97.50 Main pot $94.50 Rake $3
Board [Ts 7h 3h 6s 9h]
Seat 1: Zipper001 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Ressaway (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Smiffy44 (button) lost
Seat 5: Ian240219 (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: jackos990 (big blind) showed [Kh 8h] and won ($94.50) with A Flush, King high

[DimitriT]

----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Smiffy44 [Jc 7s]
Zipper001: folds
Ressaway: folds
Smiffy44: calls $1

I see a problem right there..

[Rondavu]

----- FLOP ----- [Ts 7h 3h]
jackos990: bets $3
Smiffy44: raises to $8
jackos990: calls $5 <----- Drawing or scared
----- TURN ----- [Ts 7h 3h][6s]
jackos990: checks <----- BINGO!
Smiffy44: bets $15 <----- Drop the fucking Hammer (bet $36)
jackos990: calls $15 <----- $15 for $34? Sure why not? I have 12 outs
----- RIVER ----- [Ts 7h 3h 6s][9h]
jackos990: bets $5 <------ Value bet
Smiffy44: raises to $21 <------ Too late
jackos990: raises to $22 and is all-in <----- Douched
Smiffy44: calls $1 <----- Just kill me now
----- SHOW DOWN -----
jackos990: shows [Kh 8h] (A Flush, King high)
Smiffy44: shows [Jc 7s] (A Pair of Sevens, Jack high)

[pantherhound]

----- FLOP ----- [Ts 7h 3h]
jackos990: bets $3
Smiffy44: raises to $8
jackos990: calls $5 <----- Drawing or scared
----- TURN ----- [Ts 7h 3h][6s]
jackos990: checks
Smiffy44: bets $15 <----- Drop the fucking Hammer (bet $36)
jackos990: calls $15 <----- $15 for $34? Sure why not? I have 12 outs
----- RIVER ----- [Ts 7h 3h 6s][9h]
jackos990: bets $5 <------ Value bet
Smiffy44: raises to $21 <------ Too late
jackos990: raises to $22 and is all-in <----- Douched
Smiffy44: calls $1 <----- Just kill me now
----- SHOW DOWN -----
jackos990: shows [Kh 8h] (A Flush, King high)
Smiffy44: shows [Jc 7s] (A Pair of Sevens, Jack high)

OK, bet the turn more, got it. It's a learning curve...

[Rondavu]

It's all in good fun Panther.

[pantherhound]

It's all in good fun Panther.

sure, i know. Dimitri, are you saying I should fold this 6 handed? It's not an MTT. I was actually outplaying them postflop before this disaster.

[Rondavu]

I also wanted to mention that normally I would bet $15 just as you did. The reason I drop the hammer in this case is for this exact reason...

Your opponent hit a flop unimproved, and when raised from 3 to 8 just called. That to me signifies an opponent with a little chase in their heart. There's only one way to stop that nonsense, and it's by dropping the hammer.

[Rondavu]

It's an instafold in my opinion. It's not suited. It's not connected. You're out of position.

It appears you're facing loose opponents as well (at least this one). When your opponents are raising weak hands, and you start pushing them around postflop, then it seems like the right thing to do at the time because they keep folding to your aggression. You really should be camping however. Play a higher average spectrum of hands than your opponents.

You're taking the riskier "mix it up" road when it's unneccesary. You're stooping to their level.

[DimitriT]

It's all in good fun Panther.

sure, i know. Dimitri, are you saying I should fold this 6 handed? It's not an MTT. I was actually outplaying them postflop before this disaster.

Raise or fold.

[biondino]

Fold fold fold. For every sexy hand history you get on here with some poker god playing 39o and hitting a 339 flop there are several dozen unplayable flops (NB excepting high-stakes playing-the-player games obv) that they get nothing from.

So yes, you should fold this worse-than-average unsuited hand out of position before the flop.

[pantherhound]

Fold fold fold. For every sexy hand history you get on here with some poker god playing 39o and hitting a 339 flop there are several dozen unplayable flops (NB excepting high-stakes playing-the-player games obv) that they get nothing from.
.

I know, my old approach was tight as anything. I play mostly MTTS and I play them rock tight. At this level though, I've had some success postflop. I know when to fold. I'm not kidding myself either by thinking I'm rolled for the 2/4 guys with my 1600 BR either, or that I can pull the same moves at that level.

[Fnord]

If I'm playing this crap pre-flop I'm comming in for a raise.

The Poker Stars guys will just hand you money by folding to continuation bets until a couple guys try to put a stop do it. Then shift gears back down to value mode for a while.

[pantherhound]

If I'm playing this crap pre-flop I'm comming in for a raise.

The Poker Stars guys will just hand you money by folding to continuation bets until a couple guys try to put a stop do it. Then shift gears back down to value mode for a while.

But you bet the turn harder when you're in there right?

I'm under no illusions as to the crappiness of the hand. It was a speculative call, yes. With the intention of outplaying him postflop, which with a little tweaking will come. But yes, i need to go back to tight play. I'm not one of those donks who's incapable of tightening up,thankfully

[pantherhound]

I'VE FOUND THE HAMMER!

------HAND 1------
Game #783096104: Texas Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1) - 2005/08/31 - 15:43:57 (UK)
Table "Phantom" Seat 3 is the button.
Seat 1: Xamollios ($12.82 in chips)
Seat 2: vitek1 ($20.25 in chips)
Seat 3: Sim190714 ($93.39 in chips)
Seat 4: muesli ($125.50 in chips)
Seat 5: Smiffy44 ($115 in chips)
Seat 6: Reddawn ($99.25 in chips)
muesli: posts small blind $0.50
Smiffy44: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Smiffy44 [Jd Jc]
Reddawn: folds
Xamollios: calls $1
vitek1: folds
Sim190714: folds
muesli: raises to $2
Smiffy44: calls $1
Xamollios: calls $1
----- FLOP ----- [3d 8d 2c]
muesli: bets $3
Smiffy44: raises to $6
Xamollios: folds
muesli: calls $3
----- TURN ----- [3d 8d 2c][Th]
muesli: checks
Smiffy44: bets $14
muesli: folds
Returned uncalled bets $14 to Smiffy44
Smiffy44: doesn't show hand
Smiffy44 collected $17.25 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $18 Main pot $17.25 Rake $0.75
Board [3d 8d 2c Th]
Seat 1: Xamollios folded on the Flop
Seat 2: vitek1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Sim190714 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: muesli (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 5: Smiffy44 (big blind) collected $17.25
Seat 6: Reddawn folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[Rondavu]

Droppen Das Hammerschriften

$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$

[biondino]

My first thought was that's a penis made of dollar signs.

[pantherhound]

Droppen Das Hammerschriften

$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$

Sie meinen Fall der Hammer? Ja, ich tat, und Blick auf die Ergebnisse!

[storm75m]

Just curious, why did you just flat call the raise with your jacks? Leaving a lot of room for A rag or K rag to crush your premium hand.

[pantherhound]

Just curious, why did you just flat call the raise with your jacks? Leaving a lot of room for A rag or K rag to crush your premium hand.

I wanted to play a good sized pot, wasn't interested in taking this one down preflop. Muesli was weak and would have folded to a substantial raise. I was happy going 3 way in the knowledge that I dump it if overs appear. they didn't, and when muesli bet I couldn't think of any feasible hand that he could be holding that beat me.

[Zangief]

----- FLOP ----- [3d 8d 2c]
muesli: bets $3
Smiffy44: raises to $6
Xamollios: folds
muesli: calls $3

You're giving him odds to draw for one card with diamonds here, especially Ax, Kx, or Qx. I would raise more, maybe to $10.

[pantherhound]

yes, that's a bad habit born of assuming that .50/1 players at William Hill usually fold to minraises. (They do, but under different circumstances, ie check raising a multi way flop)