How much do you bet/raise when holding the river nuts?

[Borax]

When you hold the nuts after the river card and want to extract as much money as you can from your remaining oponent, how much should you bet in general? Half pot? Pot? Push? Any thoughts on this?

Example:
0.25/0.5$ NL 10 player
I'm dealt
:Ad::Qd:
I raise 2$ preflop and get two callers.
Flop
:Ah: (pot 8$)
He bets half pot (4$), one fold, I raise to 12$ and he calls.
Turn
(pot 32$)
He bets 6$ and I just call suspecting a set or two pair, for some reason I do not fear a flush draw here at all and I want to see that river card for my own flush draw.
River

He bets 6$ again I raise to 20$ and he calls. I win a nice pot.
........................
The question is if I could have made more from this hand Stack size was 85$ left for him and about 65$ left for me before the river card.
Read: solid player, no rock, not very loose either.

[IJGrieve]

IMO, much more and he folds. He can obviously see there's a flush out on the river, and has to at least consider that you've been drawing for it.

If you had a good read (PT/GT+ or PE can really help here) that he'd bet on the river if you checked to him, maybe trying to represent the flush himself, then it might have been worth trying a check-raise. But I still don't think you'd get much more than this in any circumstances if he's even a half-decent player.

I reckon if you'd raised to $30 or more he'd have credited you with it unless he has you down as a bluffer (probs not likely).

[dalecooper]

I don't have a fixed rule. I bet whatever I think they'll call based on my read of their cards and their looseness as a player.

[a500lbgorilla]

I go back and forth.

If I ever have the nuts on the river and someone betting at me, I tend to just smash down a raise that says "You can't call me!"

So here, it'd be to 40. They probably call half as often as they do the miniraises.

-'rilla

[alias2211]

Turn
(pot 32$)
He bets 6$ and I just call suspecting a set or two pair, for some reason I do not fear a flush draw here at all and I want to see that river card for my own flush draw.
River

He bets 6$ again I raise to 20$ and he calls. I win a nice pot.

WTF could he have had to bet like this? $6 into $32 would have made me think that he was trying to get me to reraise and push, but that obviously wasn't going to happen considering what you had. If he'd flopped trips and decided to bite the bullet and make a meager raise to see if he could take it down after seeing the turn didn't make the full heart flush, that's one thing. But to let it slide to the river in a similar fashion is just stupid play of trips. And I think 2 pr plays similarly here to trips: especially on the turn, where two flush draws are out! Stop that shit in its tracks before it sneaks up and bites you in the ass. Do you know what he mucked on this one, BTW? I am thinking A6 because of his meek bets, but am really curious to know for sure if possible. Or he was betting his heart flush draw which never came.

As for your extraction question, I have been thinking about this a lot lately too, and am realizing that the question isn't really 'how much can I win here?' but rather, 'how much can I win from this particular player?' Against good players, it's really important that you look at their decision to call in terms of the odds they get from the pot (and ultimately from you). On the river, there was $44 in the pot, and he bet another 6 to even it out at $50. then you reraised 14 to make it 64. He obviously thought it was worth the odds for what he had to call another 14 against that 64 pot (but I still can't see how he possibly thought he had the hand won at that point). But not all players are capable of thinking about the showdown in these terms. For those players that aren't, it's more a question of 'Does he think he has me beat?' If so, you can bet out hard and get a dumbass call enough of the time to warrant a pot bet or even a push.

[journey075]

raise the max you think theyd call. i like the $20 raise.

but 3-5d is the nuts :P

[PokerPatNEU]

With a small bet like that from him on the river i'm suprised he didn't fold to the 20$. Usually whenever i feel like i'm beat by the river, thats the kind of bet i'll make and hope for a call and a cheap show down....If i was holding you're cards and someone made that bet to me on the river, i probably would have feared a fold to a 20$ bet and bet even less. Good play though it worked out for you.

[a500lbgorilla]

With a small bet like that from him on the river i'm suprised he didn't fold to the 20$. Usually whenever i feel like i'm beat by the river, thats the kind of bet i'll make and hope for a call and a cheap show down....If i was holding you're cards and someone made that bet to me on the river, i probably would have feared a fold to a 20$ bet and bet even less. Good play though it worked out for you.

You shouldnt be suprised and you shouldnt be folding in his spot either.

If you weak bet and get run over by a raise, the table will pick up on it.

-'rilla

[Borax]

Do you know what he mucked on this one, BTW? I am thinking A6 because of his meek bets, but am really curious to know for sure if possible. Or he was betting his heart flush draw which never came.

I do not know what he mucked, but I'll check later if it's in the hand history text file. I played this on Bettson poker and I haven't figured out how to get their hand history into PT. Anyone knows if it's possible?

He could have played his own flush draw, even if I was pretty sure at the time that he didn't. But as the last didn't hit, would he then have called me on the river with nothing?

[JeffreyGB]

He could also have had a lesser diamond draw and been aware enough to realize "hmm...this guy's been a calling station this hand, and now he's waking up. Maybe I'm beat, but I can't fold this J high flush with both of my hole cards in play"

[Borax]

JeffreyGB wrote:
He could also have had a lesser diamond draw and been aware enough to realize "hmm...this guy's been a calling station this hand, and now he's waking up. Maybe I'm beat, but I can't fold this J high flush with both of my hole cards in play"

Then his definition of "calling station" would be a bit twisted, wouldn't you say? I bet preflop and raise him three fold on the flop before calling on the turn. Also, his call on the flop seems odd if he is drawing to a runner runner flush. He could have put me on a -flush draw for say, KQ, thinking that my raise was a semi bluff. That would explain my call on the turn when a didn't hit and his call on the river. But then again his turn bet is weak if he puts me on a draw.

I will check the text file when I get home from work this evening. I wrote the hand from memory, so I'll check the card values as well, just in case.

[JeffreyGB]

ok...didn't look the hand over thoroughly. My bad.

[Borax]

alias2211 wrote:
Do you know what he mucked on this one, BTW? I am thinking A6 because of his meek bets, but am really curious to know for sure if possible. Or he was betting his heart flush draw which never came.

I checked the hand history file but it didn't reveal what hand he mucked.

[biondino]

99 is my guess, followed by an entire hands-worth of painful indecision on his part. I can't explain his final call any other way - maybe he put you on A9?

[Element187]

I go back and forth.

If I ever have the nuts on the river and someone betting at me, I tend to just smash down a raise that says "You can't call me!"

So here, it'd be to 40. They probably call half as often as they do the miniraises.

-'rilla

i agree 100%.

pushing all in with the second nuts (3d,5d is the nuts) gets calls much more often then not .. it looks like a bluff .. would this be called a reverse bluff ?