When slowplaying AA is ok

[SmackinYaUp]

Heres the deal - ive been on the BB with AA twice and had the table fold around to the small blind who raised it about 4x each time, and I flat called the raise - making it just me and him heads up. I decided to just call his flop bet, then raise him on the turn to confuse him and hopefully take his bluff money as well. Both times I have been burned by silly hands on non-threatening boards and was wondering if playing AA like that against one opponent is a huge mistake.

[dsaxton]

I think it's usually mathematically incorrect to slow-play any vulnerable hand like a pair, but against an especially aggressive opponent you may be able to win enough bluff money through slow-playing to more than compensate for lost pot equity.

[Greedo017]

i don't think so. i might show some aggression on the flop instead of the turn, but preflop you are 80%+ to win, no reason to fear any flop really, especially heads up.

[jmontis]

this is called trapping, and i'd say a majority of the time you will win if he has AK/ under pair.

[melinda27]

this is called trapping, and i'd say a majority of the time you will win if he has AK/ under pair.

but trapping with an overpair is kind of ridiculous

[poskid_1982]

I think saying that it's ridiculous is a touch harsh. A slowplay preflop is sometimes the way to go...Passive opp you want to keep in or trying to trap a tricky player. Just remember that if you slow play rockets that you will get run down more often.

[lovemachine]

you get dealt AA, raise from early position, someone makes a huge reraise, and you put him on QQ or KK, sometimes this is a good time to just call and slowplay. this way if the flop is rags you can check to them and they will probably bet it out very strongly thinking their overpair is good and a reraise on this flop will confuse them and you can usually get them to commit a lot of chips this way. this is usually the only situation that i'll slow play aces

[SmackinYaUp]

Yea well thats basically the same thing as my situation. Im not talking about being UTG and limping with aces, i mean being last to act as the big blind and having everybody fold around to the small blind who tries to raise you off your blind. This is a headsup situation with AA vs an unknown couple of cards.

Heres how my thinking went - If I just call his raise and call his flop bet, thats really no different than if we'd gone all in preflop - either way im hoping my aces hold up while 5 board cards fall. And hopefully then I can induce a bluff or get someone thinking their TPTK is good. Was this good thinking or should I have just played it fast?

[face]

Heres how my thinking went - If I just call his raise and call his flop bet, thats really no different than if we'd gone all in preflop - either way im hoping my aces hold up while 5 board cards fall. And hopefully then I can induce a bluff or get someone thinking their TPTK is good. Was this good thinking or should I have just played it fast?

I don't think this is logical. If you went allin preflop, that means all you each know is the cards in your hand. Any hand he would call allin with you would be heavy favorite over at this point. However, he could be raising with any two, so it is unlikely he will call a huge reraise preflop.

However, if you give him essentially four free cards, and then he wakes up and makes a big bet, the situation is different. Depending on the board, he could have top pair, or his J7o just made two pair. Either way, now if we look at the hands he would call allin with, given that he showed he liked his hand after seeing 4 more cards worth of data, if you didn't make a set you might be a slight dog.

The reason that the two scenarios aren't the same is the amount of information you both have about your hands, and the information you have on how much the other person likes their hand. Preflop, AA is clearly the best. After 4 cards heads up, given no large betting by your opponent, it is still ahead most of the time. However, lets say the flop comes rags: 9710 two clubs. He makes a small bet and you smooth call. A fourth club falls. He bets the pot. This is not the same as your 80/20 edge over any random two cards. P(you're beat|board and betting) is now probably higher than .5.

I guess my main question is this: what do you want from this hand? I suppose you want more than the blinds and his raise. However, if he wakes up and starts firing after the flop and turn, you have to decide which percentage of the time this big pot you're looking for is yours and how often it is his. In other words, if your slowplay works and the pot gets big, how likely are you to be the favorite? If it doesn't work and he checks along, was the added risk worth it given no reward?


All this aside, you will probably make him fold if you reraise preflop. Your line, though it implies more risk (higher variance), might be higher EV if you can lay your hand down if you are obviously beat. If you cant, then you're probably better off winning the pot preflop with a big reraise.

[Legendash]

good post face, i totally agree

[drmcboy]

SS time

AA will win you small pots and loose you big ones, every time. Unless you get a perfect flop (maybe Q high if he raised with KQ) you're not making much money here on the slow play. Any PP he'll probably give up to overs unless he makes a set, gargabe he's folding unless he makes two pair.

'If you cant, then you're probably better off winning the pot preflop with a big reraise. '

Super correct - Me I'm weak when it comes to AA, I just hate giving it up. It's a leak in the game and the best way to mitigate the risk is to always (re) raise.

[JeffreyGB]

Ultimately, I think, it comes down to the player you're playing against. Will he try to buy the pot regardless of the cards? Slowplaying is fine. Will he only bet/push with at least 2 pair? Don't slowplay.

If the information doesn't involve any more risk than pushing preflop (in a situation where he'll be raising no matter what the cards are), such a slow play would be +EV. If his play matches his cards, then you're in danger.

[storm75m]

I agree with face and drmcboy, but IMHO I think in this particular situation, heads up in the blinds, it's not that bad of a play. Especially since the SB raised it 4x twice when this happened before. I think the odds that your AA will hold up are pretty good, and if they don't then oh well, just take your medicine. It all depends on the read you have on your opponent though.

[drmcboy]

I think the odds that your AA will hold up are pretty good

Very true, you are the big favorite. The issue is if they hold up you're not going to make any money (again, barring a perfect flop, say A rag rag and he pairs 2 rags) but you will lose a lot of money if he hits the flop. You're giving implied odds on your whole stack, he is giving you no odds. You're taking the worst of it here unless you re raise most of the time.

Now IF you re raise, and the board comes Q72r or something, that's a flop I might slow play hoping he would continue bet, you're not nearly as scared of rags after he called the raise. Regardless I'm 'coming out of the woods' on the turn, unless the turn makes me a set.... even then assuming a flush draw gets there I'm probably leading out. At that point the guy either has hand he's going to pay you with or not.

[nick87]

I don't like the thought of slowplaying any pair. Its a pair. I don't even slow play three of a kind very often.

heres the thing, jsut becuase you have an awesome hand doesn't mean you can get ALOT of money out of it.

in the right situations, you can get more money with 89, than with AA. AA, although powerful, are still a fragile hand becuase there is only two cards in the entire deck that will improve it before the flop.

AA is also a hard hand to get away from if you are beat becuase you have the thought stuck in your head that its AA(!!!). So if you slowplay and let somebody catch two of a kind or better, than your screwed. But you bet aggressively, and not give anyone a chance to try and catch any sort of draw, than you win a small pot.


so yeah, of course, AA are powerful, but you should still be careful with them because they have the potential to either win a small pot, or lose big one.

[Spook]

I think you are missing out on a more important issue. If you are letting the SB take you out of the hand on a regular basis you have a serious problem. You need to frequently (not always, but often enough to keep him scared) stand up and say no damnit, you do NOT want to mess with me like that. If you aren't willing to put all your chips behind the best starting hand there is, then when are you going to do it?

Push all your chips into the middle anytime you can get heads up with AA. Period. You won't win them all, but you will win far, far more than you lose in the long run.

[ChezJ]

spook, in this case you are already heads up so what is the point of moving in? all it will do is end the hand and win you nothing but the SB's initial bet. you are 85% to win heads up. smooth call the pre-flop raise, let him bet at you again on the flop, THEN move in. you make twice as much money this way.

here's a similar example. NL tourney. i am shortstacked at the final table with $870 in the SB. blinds are $100/$200. UTG raises to $600 and everyone folds to me. i smooth call knowing i am 85% to win. flop is low low rags. i check, he checks. turn is a 2. i bet $200, the minimum. he asks me how much i've got left, i say $70. he says, "i put you all in" and i call, doubling up against his unimproved KQ. i go on to win the tournament.

if i re-reraised pre-flop he may have called, may have folded. this way i ensured i would double up when i needed it most.

ChezJ

[Spook]

I'm taking this from a tournament standpoint, which may not have been the case here. But I think the benifit of defending your blind outways the chip gathering/risk of letting them see the flop first.