Q9s wild pot...

[pokerfanatic]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: pkrfanatic is MP3 with 9, Q.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, pkrfanatic calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 4, Q, 6 (8 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, pkrfanatic 3-bets, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, pkrfanatic calls, SB calls.

Turn: (15.50 BB) 8 (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 raises, MP1 calls, pkrfanatic calls, SB 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, pkrfanatic calls, SB calls.

River: (35.50 BB) 2 (5 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 3-bets, pkrfanatic caps, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 55.50 BB

[Superior]

I would have folded when it was 3-bet..

[TylerK]

It would have been dirt stupid to fold at any point in this hand.

I prefer a call on the flop to a 3bet though.

[pokerfanatic]

I would have folded when it was 3-bet..

You actually fold this pot hell if I had one out I would be seeing it to the river...

It would have been dirt stupid to fold at any point in this hand.

I prefer a call on the flop to a 3bet though.

it would have been capped anyways... if I’m going to play why not 3 bet to speed up the action a tad bit, no one is going to fold anyways pots too large...

[Phyl]

I'd raise preflop. Rest I'd probably play the same, the only real debatable street is the flop.

I would have folded when it was 3-bet..

Which street are you referring to?

[StinkyBeaver]

Awesome Pot Fanatic...

I guess you are a bit more aggressive on the flop than I am.

Anyways how's it going at 1/2 so far.

As for myself I'm either on a cold run of cards or not skilled enough, only breakin even so far 3,000 hands.

[poskid_1982]

it would have been capped anyways... if I’m going to play why not 3 bet to speed up the action a tad bit, no one is going to fold anyways pots too large...

If you are using this logic for the flop...Then what's the point of calling the turn instead of raising with an added draw?

[pokerfanatic]

Awesome Pot Fanatic...

I guess you are a bit more aggressive on the flop than I am.

Anyways how's it going at 1/2 so far.

As for myself I'm either on a cold run of cards or not skilled enough, only breaking even so far 3,000 hands.

1/2 is not going that good I’m negative over all... if it wasn't for me playing 2/4 out of my roll i would be like -100bb or something ridicules, instead I’m like -40bb...

it would have been capped anyways... if I’m going to play why not 3 bet to speed up the action a tad bit, no one is going to fold anyways pots too large...

If you are using this logic for the flop...Then what's the point of calling the turn instead of raising with an added draw?

added draw = more outs, i figure if i make my Q, 9, and a flush i could be good, with the action I’m assuming the two pair wont be good, on the turn so the Q might be out there but it my not have me out kicked given that the action says some big cards are out... so I’m looking at what I think is 9 clean outs plus 2 Q outs, soo 11 outs in a wild pot why not gambol it up and go for it? I ended up not even having ANY outs as to come to find out on the river...

Results for this hand below:
SB has Qd 8s (two pair, queens and eights).
UTG+1 has 7h 5h (straight, eight high).
UTG+2 has 4c 4s (three of a kind, fours).
MP1 has Tc Kc (flush, king high).
pkrfanatic has 9c Qc (flush, queen high).
Outcome: MP1 wins 55.50 BB.

[Fnord]

Raising this pre-flop is kinda silly, particularly if these guys suck this bad. I want to keep the pot under control pre-flop with a hand like this.

MP1's cold 3-bet might make me hesitate to put in a cap. My god those over-calls suck.

[elipsesjeff]

I'm folding this preflop.

I believe we have a new record.....

[TylerK]

I'm folding this preflop.

I believe we have a new record.....

You're loony.

[elipsesjeff]

I'm folding this preflop.

I believe we have a new record.....

You're loony.

55 BB pot dude, new record. I think mine was 52...

[Fnord]

I'm folding this preflop.

No way I'm folding if these guys suck this bad.

[elipsesjeff]

Meh, With little high card power here and 8 people in the pot its very likely you are dominated and/or your outs are tainted. The connectedness of this hand is very minimal so the straight is very unlikely. You are only playing this hand for the ability in making a flush.

And for that matter he did lose with his non-nut flush. One of his queens was already out there and he was drawing to three outs. The fact that he lost 10 BB on this hand alone should make you think that Q9s just isnt anything more than a break-even at best hand.

If it was K9s or QTs I would play it.

[Phyl]

I don't think I would ever fold preflop in this spot.

11,163,877 games 88.406 secs 126,279 games/sec
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 26.4113 % [ 00.25 00.01 ] { Q9s }
Hand 2: 18.4064 % [ 00.17 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 18.4007 % [ 00.17 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 18.3867 % [ 00.17 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 5: 18.3949 % [ 00.17 00.01 ] { random }

Ok random is a stretch but still I think that shows this is easily a limp at least. I'd probably raise it to buy the button and to get the action checked to me on the flop. What are the costs of raising preflop if this hand has decent equity?

he fact that he lost 10 BB on this hand alone should make you think that Q9s just isnt anything more than a break-even at best hand.

Dude one hand doesn't really show anything.

[pokerfanatic]

i lost 10.5bb to try to win 55.5bb umm i'm not bitching too much...

[elipsesjeff]

Dude one hand doesn't really show anything.

If he was going to win, this would be his hand to do so. He's now got to make up 10 BB to even break even with this hand. He's got a 6% chance to win a flush with any two suited cards. Given on any one hand you'll probably win 3-4 BB with a hand like this, so he has to win at least 2 maybe even 3 more times to break even with this hand, and thats the next three times he has this hand. Not counting the fact that he will only win 1/3 flush draws of which he is probably betting and building the pot.

You're right one hand doesn't show anything, but you have to think long term here. Check your PT databases, I can almost guarantee Q9s doesnt have a a high win rate, and it is more than likely barely break even at best.

[Fnord]

You're right one hand doesn't show anything, but you have to think long term here. Check your PT databases, I can almost guarantee Q9s doesnt have a a high win rate, and it is more than likely barely break even at best.

You so silly. Q9s isn't a powerhouse, but in the Hijack behind 4 limpers it should show a profit. This isn't just a game of position + starting hands, you need to consider who's in the pot as well when determining the best play. If he lost flush over flush with 87s (which I'm certain you would play in that spot, or at least would have last month) would you say "tough beat" or "fold pre-flop"? How much worse/better of a hand do you think Q9s is?

[elipsesjeff]

Well, 87s at least has straight-making power. In this situation I'm pretty sure that 87s is better against multiple opponents than Q9s. Although, I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see the numbers...

[pokerfanatic]

the pot was out of control man I know Q9s isn't a strong holding but with the action I decided to gambol it up I thought my gambol paid HUGE dived ends on the river but I was wrong and got unlucky that 3rd best was not good enough...

[Fnord]

I did it for Jeff...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with Q, 9.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Fnord calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6, 9, 9 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, Fnord bets, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 3 (2 players)
UTG checks, Fnord bets, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 4.50 BB

[Fnord]

All from this month...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is SB with 9, Q.
UTG calls, 4 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Fnord completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) K, J, T (6 players)
Fnord bets, BB folds, UTG folds, MP3 calls, CO raises, Button calls, Fnord 3-bets, MP3 caps, CO calls, Button calls, Fnord calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 4 (4 players)
Fnord bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (15 BB) 4 (4 players)
Fnord bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds.

Final Pot: 18 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has 9d Qd (flush, king high).
MP3 has Ks Qc (two pair, kings and fours).
CO has 2h Kh (two pair, kings and fours).
Outcome: Fnord wins 18 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is CO with 9, Q.
UTG calls, 4 folds, Fnord raises, 3 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (5.33 SB) 5, 9, 2 (2 players)
UTG bets, Fnord raises, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 4 (2 players)
UTG checks, Fnord bets, UTG calls.

River: (6.66 BB) T (2 players)
UTG checks, Fnord bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 8.66 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has Kd 5h (one pair, fives).
Fnord has 9s Qs (flush, queen high).
Outcome: Fnord wins 8.66 BB.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with Q, 9.
UTG calls, 4 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Fnord calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) A, 2, 9 (5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG folds, MP3 folds, Fnord calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 9 (2 players)
SB bets, Fnord raises, SB calls.

River: (7.50 BB) K (2 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results in white below:
SB has Ac 8d (two pair, aces and nines).
Fnord has Qs 9s (three of a kind, nines).
Outcome: Fnord wins 9.50 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with 9, Q.
6 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, Fnord checks.

Flop: (2.33 SB) 3, 9, 8 (2 players)
Fnord checks, CO bets, Fnord raises, CO calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) 5 (2 players)
Fnord bets, CO calls.

River: (5.16 BB) 7 (2 players)
Fnord bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 7.16 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has 9c Qc (one pair, nines).
CO has 7h Qh (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Fnord wins 7.16 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with Q, 9.
4 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Fnord raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls.

Flop: (5.33 SB) 9, 6, 7 (2 players)
MP3 checks, Fnord bets, MP3 calls.

Turn: (3.66 BB) 4 (2 players)
MP3 checks, Fnord bets, MP3 calls.

River: (5.66 BB) J (2 players)
MP3 checks, Fnord checks.

Final Pot: 5.66 BB

Results in white below:
MP3 has 7s 7d (three of a kind, sevens).
Fnord has Qh 9h (one pair, nines).
Outcome: MP3 wins 5.66 BB.

[elipsesjeff]

ROFL.

The only one I really do like is the one from the SB.

[Fnord]

ROFL.

The only one I really do like is the one from the SB.

You're playing too tight. Both button calls were pretty ABC. On the raises I was up against a known loose/passive ATM machine with tight blinds. Consider that you can button limp just about anything you can complete with in a 1/3 structure (there are even hands I play from the button but won't complete with.) In a 1/2 structure you can play a lot of your completion hands for 1 sb from the button. Position, position, position!

[Fnord]

Well, 87s at least has straight-making power. In this situation I'm pretty sure that 87s is better against multiple opponents than Q9s. Although, I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see the numbers...

Here are the PokerRoom numbers, for what it's worth...

Cards  SB    BB    3     4     5     6     7     HJ    CO    BN 
Q9 s -0.07 -0.13 -0.04  0.11  0.07  0.06 -0.07 -0.01  0.01 -0.00 
87 s -0.17 -0.19  0.11 -0.02 -0.09 -0.05 -0.02 -0.07 -0.00  0.02 

Q9 s  0.06 367,923 
87 s -0.02 367,787

[RiverMonkey]

there are even hands I play from the button but won't complete with

Interesting that you say that. What kind of hands are you referring to?

SSH advocates playing looser when completing from the SB than when on the button not the other way around. For example, on the button they say play suited one gappers down to 53s , and from the SB add 'any two suited cards'.

Before I say more, let me recognize that I view any charts as suggestive and they shouldn't always be followed to a T (e.g. know who you are entering the pot with etc.), but Miller/Sklansky do go out of their way to say that you shouldn't stray too far away from their recommendations.

You have better odds when completing from the SB, but you have much better position on the button. So, Miller/Sklansky obviously value the better odds over position for hands like T7s & 85s etc.

I tend to play "just as loose" when completing and on the button when there are lots of limpers. In other words, with 4-to-5+ limpers I play T7s from both positions in loose game. Should I be looking to tighten/loosen in one position relative to the other?

[Fnord]

Interesting that you say that. What kind of hands are you referring to?

KTo, QTo, JTo, A9o with a 1/3 blind structure.