Would You Have Done What I Did?

[journey075]

This is a $1/2 NL $100 buy-in game with avg stack being $150-200.



I am in EP and raise to 15 with 8-8.

Next position calls. Position after raises all-in to 53.

Folds around to guy on my right. He calls.

The guy who pushed has been playing loose agressive all day long. I put him on high cards, AK AQ or AJ (yes he would do this with AJ). I dont want 4 callers in this hand so I push over (another 400).

Guy to my left folds, this MORON on my right calls all-in with KJo.

Jack on the flop, the rest is history. I would have won if it was simply heads up with me and the guy who pushed (who I read correctly for AK).


My justification on the push was that the entire table was strongly considering calling the 53 raise. This was a VERY loose table. So I put them all on high cards and hoped they all had each others outs. I was right, there was not one ace or king left in the deck (and ironically only 2 jacks left).

Well, would you have simply laid this down preflop and taken a 15 loss? Or would you have pushed over and tried to isolate? I know poker is a long term game of odds, but it completely sucks when an idiot calls with KJo to 2 all-ins.

[a500lbgorilla]

What was your stack size?

if he's got 400 and you've got 400 you can definitly push overtop and isolate at high risk.

88 ain't doin so hot against 4 over cards. You could always flat call and try to out flop KJ and then remove him.

-'rilla

[journey075]

I had about 460, he had 200.

[a500lbgorilla]

I had about 460, he had 200.

Since he did limp/call and the other player you have on high cards, going over the top AI should probably fold him out unless he really likes to gamble.

If you think there is a decent chance he'll call 150 more into a 300 pot then you should just cut it loose. I don't think donating 50 more bucks to try and hit a flop sans high cards is the best move.

-'rilla

[journey075]

Well I read the table perfectly, which is why I feel screwed. I made a call based on a read. The read was perfect and yet I still lost.

I honestly don't believe Id change my decision if I could do it all over. They had 2 outs between them (I didnt expect to be in such a favorable position, but knew they didnt have 4 overs to my pockets). The odds were astronomically in my favor.

Sigh, whatever.

[journey075]

oh and id like to point out that I took all his money on a later hand when I beat his 4s full with aces full. bastard.

[allLiving]

Seeing a flop here isn't terrible, going all in gives the opponent 5 cards to see his K or J fall. Letting both of you see the flop gives him 3 cards to catch, and you a chance to get away from a losing hand. Just because he played incorrectly doesn't mean that you still can't fold the flop.

[a500lbgorilla]

Well I read the table perfectly, which is why I feel screwed. I made a call based on a read. The read was perfect and yet I still lost.

I honestly don't believe Id change my decision if I could do it all over. They had 2 outs between them (I didnt expect to be in such a favorable position, but knew they didnt have 4 overs to my pockets). The odds were astronomically in my favor.

Sigh, whatever.

They have 8 outs between them not 2.

-'rilla

[a500lbgorilla]

Seeing a flop here isn't terrible, going all in gives the opponent 5 cards to see his K or J fall. Letting both of you see the flop gives him 3 cards to catch, and you a chance to get away from a losing hand. Just because he played incorrectly doesn't mean that you still can't fold the flop.

But how many "good flops" will there be if your reads were just for high cards? The chance of a card higher than T flopping is high. And he only has 150 left in his stack so the implied odds don't make up for the rare flops you will make.

-'rilla

[journey075]

Well I read the table perfectly, which is why I feel screwed. I made a call based on a read. The read was perfect and yet I still lost.

I honestly don't believe Id change my decision if I could do it all over. They had 2 outs between them (I didnt expect to be in such a favorable position, but knew they didnt have 4 overs to my pockets). The odds were astronomically in my favor.

Sigh, whatever.

They have 8 outs between them not 2.

-'rilla

If you read what I posted the first time, i noted that there were no A's or K's left in the deck cause everyone folded AQ, KQ etc. in mid position fearful of a reraise.

There were only 2 J's left as one guy folded KJ.

2 outs for the pair.

[AllinLife]

Sadly, "moron" with KJo didn't make much bad play in comparison to yours.

no matter how you put it, you made a horrible play. starting from raising 7bb with 88 in EP, and pushing over cold call.

I hope you don't keep trying to justify your play with your "read" and call other opponents "morons" because it's simply disastrous for your growth as poker player.

with TT, maybe but 88's are almost always coinflip at best and will often be 4:1 underdog vs overpairs in this situation. don't you realize you only beat 22~77 and A2~A7 here? and even if that's included in range of hands they will play like this, this is flat out dumb play because if they are that loose, you can just wait for JJ/AQs+ to put the money in as huge favorite.

if you figured him for high cards like AK~AJ, call preflop and push on flop regardless of what shows up and hope he missed/fold. there is no way a guy who cold called 53$ laying down his hand for 150$ more. and by doing a stop and go here, you have much higher chance of him laying down his hand because he will miss the flop almost 2/3 of the time, and if he calls even if he missed, then you just got the money in as nearly 1:3 favorite.

Seriosuly change your attitude about "morons" who make bad plays though and think about why you should change your attitude. it's really simple.

[Aceofone]

Allinlife worded his opinion a little harshly but it is pretty much correct. Raising 8xbb in early position is asking for disaster, your either going to be dominated or you'll win the blinds because of the fear an EP raise brings. The table may have been loose, but when someone comes over the top of an EP raise you have to give them credit for holding something.

Your read was great, but you should have played for a flop and tried to push him out after (if he missed). 88 has potential but it just isn't a great starting hand in EP.

[journey075]

okay hes not a moron. he was raising preflop with q low suited and that was probably his best hand of the night. that said...


thinking that i had the only pocket pair (or the highest pocket pair at the table) i have about 40% chance to win straight up against AK and KJ (more chance than either of them separately).

It would have been 55/45 if it was heads up and I wouldve taken those odds due to the hesitation of the rest of the table (seriously, people were taking 3 or 4min each to fold).

my mistake i suppose was that i didnt try to read LP at all. i assumed he would fold to an all in bet. if he called and showed qq kk or aa i would understand, but it boggles me that he thought he had a chance with 2 all-ins. 1 had to have ak or better, right?

and i agree with your advice, i shouldve waited for a better hand. but i really wanted to go heads up and take my chances, i had a very good feeling a lot of AI's outs were gone. I wouldve done the same with 2-2.

however, the goal here is to grow as a poker player and i know attitude has much to do with that, and while i think you are looking too much at the particular cards (allinlife) in the situation, you bring up a valid point. my response is that poker does become instinctual at some point and for some reason, huge mistake or not, i thought that i would be a large favorite with any pocket pair to his all in.

i suppose i cant really justify my play but id like you to at least understand it. although i agree with you 100% on my fault of raising so hard preflop (but that had become standard by that point).

thanks.

[Radix]

I wouldn't have raised PF. I would have tried to see the flop as cheaply as possible, hoping for a set. There is an 87% of seeing an overcard on the flop when you hold 88, and you're 7.5:1 to hitting your set.

[thestrokes]

1 had to have ak or better, right?

Apparently not

[AllinLife]

I wouldve done the same with 2-2.

of course it's correct to have 22 vs overcards because you have 5% EV, but you should avoid this play. mainly because

1) your reads will never be 100%
2) if you are wrong about overcard read, you will be 4:1 underdog
3) you can put MUCH better spot to put the money in the middle vs these guys according to your descriptoin
4) that cold call shoudl ALWAYS ring alarm bells in your head. you should have known that this guy cleary does not have the logic/skill to fold to allin bet being loose-passive player he is.



no offence but you are far way from playing instinctual poker. you gotta know the fundementals/odds first before you approach that level 3 thinking and start playing the players.

please realize 88 isn't AA..66 doesn't even beat random hand and 88 ins't so far away from 6.

[journey075]

np, i never said i was a great poker player. thanks for the comments.

i guess thats my real problem, trying to capitalize on very slight statistical advantages. anyway, its nice to know what good poker players think of my play.

[Greedo017]

you didn't do so bad, they're being hard on you.

do have one question though. you raised to $15 with 88 in early position? why?

[journey075]

you didn't do so bad, they're being hard on you.

do have one question though. you raised to $15 with 88 in early position? why?

with a 460 chip stack its nice to bully .