QQ vs. Reraise

[Zangief]

Hello all.

How do you handle a reraise with QQ?

I expected this guy had AA or KK by the way he reraised me to $10. That is exactly what I would do.

Given that, I decided to call his raise, hoping to make a set on the flop and break him. That didn't happen, but he bet so weakly that I wasn't sure it made any sense to fold.

How would you guys have handled this? If your answer is "fold pre-flop", please also tell me what you would have done if you had seen the flop like I did.

Thanks.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

CO ($32.34)
Button ($24.25)
SB ($19.41)
BB ($30.72)
UTG ($28.95)
UTG+1 ($36.52)
Hero ($70.93)
MP1 ($14.08)
MP2 ($21.78)
MP3 ($20.28)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Qs, Qd. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, Hero raises to $3, 7 folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $10, Hero calls $7.

Flop: ($20.60) 9d, 4d, Js (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.45, Hero calls $0.45.

Turn: ($21.50) 4s (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $3, Hero calls $3.

River: ($27.50) 6h (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $5, Hero calls $5.

Final Pot: $37.50

Results below:
UTG+1 has Kd Ks (two pair, kings and fours).
Hero has Qs Qd (two pair, queens and fours).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $37.50.

[SmackinYaUp]

I know its scary but I would have raised him hard after that weakass bet to see where he's at. With you cold calling all the way it probably shows to him a lack of confidence in your hand while revealing nothing to you about his holdings.

If he is a decent player I dont see him betting such a pathetic amount with a weak hand. Just as I am writing this heres a couple hands where I raised to see whats up. They got scared and I felt better.

***** Hand History for Game 1670618626 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Tuesday, March 01, 22:36:27 EDT 2005
Table Table 37507 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: SlappYou ( $24.25 )
Seat 2: illfingrz ( $22.8 )
Seat 3: VeNSe ( $33.28 )
Seat 5: jmdst92 ( $25.65 )
Seat 6: MRGSER ( $25 )
Seat 7: la3z3nt ( $20.55 )
Seat 9: TaylorMade49 ( $10.2 )
Seat 10: larrybird111 ( $29.95 )
Seat 4: suds4 ( $30.15 )
Seat 8: jaybird4848 ( $15.5 )
suds4 posts small blind [$0.1].
jmdst92 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SlappYou [ Tc As ]
MRGSER folds.
la3z3nt folds.
jaybird4848 folds.
TaylorMade49 folds.
larrybird111 folds.
SlappYou calls [$0.25].
>You have options at Table 37089 Table!.
illfingrz calls [$0.25].
VeNSe folds.
suds4 calls [$0.15].
jmdst92 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ac, 3c, 9d ]
suds4 checks.
jmdst92 checks.
SlappYou bets [$1].
illfingrz raises [$2].
suds4 folds.
jmdst92 folds.
SlappYou raises [$3].
illfingrz calls [$2].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
>You have options at Table 37089 Table!.
SlappYou bets [$6].
illfingrz calls [$6].
** Dealing River ** [ Td ]
SlappYou bets [$7].
illfingrz calls [$7].
SlappYou shows [ Tc, As ] two pairs, aces and tens.
illfingrz doesn't show [ 7h, Ah ] two pairs, aces and nines.
SlappYou wins $33.25 from the main pot with two pairs, aces and tens.


***** Hand History for Game 1670642211 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Tuesday, March 01, 22:40:05 EDT 2005
Table Table 37507 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: SlappYou ( $39.25 )
Seat 2: illfingrz ( $5.55 )
Seat 3: VeNSe ( $33.28 )
Seat 6: MRGSER ( $25 )
Seat 7: la3z3nt ( $20.45 )
Seat 9: TaylorMade49 ( $13.85 )
Seat 10: larrybird111 ( $28.7 )
Seat 4: suds4 ( $30.5 )
Seat 8: jaybird4848 ( $14 )
Seat 5: jambo3d ( $24.75 )
TaylorMade49 posts small blind [$0.1].
larrybird111 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SlappYou [ Qh Qs ]
>You have options at Table 37089 Table!.
SlappYou raises [$3].
illfingrz folds.
VeNSe folds.
suds4 folds.
jambo3d folds.
MRGSER folds.
la3z3nt folds.
jaybird4848 folds.
TaylorMade49 calls [$2.9].
larrybird111 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, 2c, Jc ]
TaylorMade49 bets [$1].
SlappYou raises [$4].
TaylorMade49 calls [$3].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7d ]
TaylorMade49 checks.
SlappYou bets [$7].
TaylorMade49 folds.
SlappYou does not show cards.
SlappYou wins $20.55

[dsaxton]

Fold preflop if the reraise is big, or call and try to flop a set if the reraise is not big. The only hands that will legitimately make this reraise are J-J, Q-Q (highly unlikely), K-K, A-A, and A-K, but most likely K-K and A-A, so you're generally drawing dead to a set.

[Aces]

Tough, but laydown preflop. At $25 table it's somewhat more likely he could be raising with something like JJ or TT, but it's not worth it IMO.

After the flop I'd probably reraise either the flop or turn. Could be slowplaying AA or KK, but it looks an awful like an AK that didn't hit, which he might laydown to a reraise.

What's the result?
Edit - Duh, yeah I shoulda noticed. Usually it's in white.

[Zangief]

The results were actually above, they were just colored with the background color (you can see them if you highlight the area).

UTG+1 has Kd Ks (two pair, kings and fours).
Hero has Qs Qd (two pair, queens and fours).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $37.50.

I felt like he bet $0.45 on the flop to try to get me to reraise big, so he could push. At that point, I felt quite sure that he had AA or KK, so I wanted to get as many cheap cards and as cheap a showdown as possible. And after that, I didn't feel like I could fold to his $3 and $5 bets.

I guess I should have just folded pre-flop and saved myself $15.45.

[dalecooper]

I hate the cold call pre-flop. Push there or fold. He doesn't have enough money in his stack to justify calling that raise if you think you need to hit the set to win. His stack is $36 - after the pre-flop shenanigans, roughly $25. If you have to call a $7 raise just to see the flop and your chance of making a set is about 1 in 9, he has to have a lot more than $25 left for this to be a +EV situation for you.

If you think he's on AK or a weaker pair than yours, push right there. If you think he has kings or aces (and that's a good rule of thumb for a big re-raise like that, absent a specific read on the player doing the raising) - let it go.

Given that you DID call, the post-flop action is really weird. His bets are just off. I would probably push on the flop and get it over with right there.

[Rondavu]

I hate the cold call pre-flop. Push there or fold.

Your a veteran player, and I respect your experience. However, I hear this "never cold call" thing constantly, and have yet to understand it. It seems stubborn to me. The following seems more logical....

You don't know whether he has KK AA or AK when he raises you. Cold calling is correct to me because if he has KK or AA you don't want to go all in, and because if he has AK you don't want to fold. Clearly Fold and Raise were both inferior choices on this particular hand given the possibilities. I'd rather lose some money trying to hit my set. I would have never called the turn and river if I knew the player was tight and saved 8 bucks. If you think your queens are good then oh well better luck next time. At least you didn't lose your whole stack.

Seriously though, what is the logic behind "never cold call?" Sometimes it pays to be submissive. This was a perfect example of one of those times.

You can't be Mr. Strongarms all the time, especially when there's a 2 out of 3 chance your dominated. Really, who are you fooling by trying to control the hand at that point of analysis?

[dalecooper]

Your a veteran player, and I respect your experience. However, I hear this "never cold call" thing constantly, and have yet to understand it. It seems stubborn to me. The following seems more logical....

Before I get into the dirty details - I'm not a "never cold call" kind of guy, and few actual pros are. There are many reasons to cold call. I don't like cold calling here for a specific reason that I'm about to get into.

You don't know whether he has KK AA or AK when he raises you. Cold calling is correct to me because if he has KK or AA you don't want to go all in, and because if he has AK you don't want to fold. Clearly Fold and Raise were both inferior choices on this particular hand given the possibilities. I'd rather lose some money trying to hit my set. I would have never called the turn and river if I knew the player was tight and saved 8 bucks. If you think your queens are good then oh well better luck next time. At least you didn't lose your whole stack.

Here's my point of view on it:

- If you don't have a particular read on a player that says otherwise, logic tells you that a healthy re-raise of your initial raise pre-flop indicates strength. Specifically it indicates a high pair, 90+ % of the time. The big blind here is 25 cents; our hero raises to 12xBB (excessive, but never mind) and is re-raised to 40xBB? The guy has kings or aces. It's a losing proposition to talk yourself into any other scenario. And our hero already admitted that he figured he was behind, and was looking for a set to win.

Very few players will re-raise you like that with AK or a pair lower than queens... VERY few. Only the maniacs, basically. If you have a specific reason to think he's a maniac, then you want to push back at him right there... all in pre-flop. Make him make the hard decision. There's a chance that he reads you for AK or a lower pair and is trying to bluff you, but if you don't have a specific reason to think he would play that way, why take the chance?

So here it is: if you strongly suspect he's bullying or overvaluing a weaker hand, push all in. Get all your money in with the best hand. If you don't have any strong feelings about the player, you should take this huge, balls-out re-raise as a sign of strength, recognize that you're dominated, and not go after that 1 in 9 shot with the queens. Because he doesn't have enough chips to make it worth your while. If you play the hand 9 times and lose that $7 eight times, but get his whole stack the other one time, you experience a net loss ($56 lost vs. $45 gained - that's the $20 initial pot plus his remaining $25). And that's assuming you never spend another cent after the flop if you don't flop the set of queens. Which, as we can see from this example, isn't a correct assumption.

Seriously though, what is the logic behind "never cold call?" Sometimes it pays to be submissive. This was a perfect example of one of those times.

Was it? He threw money away. Even if he'd made his set, as I just mentioned, he would have lost money in the long run on the hand. His read was correct (the other player had kings) and he stayed in for bad implied odds. There was no money to be made here. I would only recommend staying in if the other player had a lot more chips to pay you off when you hit the set.

You can't be Mr. Strongarms all the time, especially when there's a 2 out of 3 chance your dominated. Really, who are you fooling by trying to control the hand at that point of analysis?

I'm not - I would have folded. That's my point. I would only push there if I had a very specific reason to think the other player was on a weaker hand.

To be very clear: I am absolutely in favor of calling pre-flop raises with pocket pairs, even if you think you are dominated pre-flop by a higher pair, in order to try to draw a set. That's a good situation to cold call. But only if the other player has a lot of money to pay you off and make it worth your while, and only if you think you can get all of his money. In this particular case, he didn't have enough money left to make it work. I'd say there was less than 10% chance he had AK or some other hand worse than queens. Even if he did have AK, a king or ace will flop 1 time in 3.5 - there's another way to drain your money off on this hand. And that's assuming he is on AK, which he usually won't be, with that re-raise. AK would typically cold call that raise pre-flop.

[dalecooper]

Auxiliary post: here's a number of unrelated situations where cold-calling is a good or even great idea.

1. After the flop, when you are positive you have by far the best hand, and the other player's chance of drawing out on you is very low.

2. Pre- or post-flop against a loose/aggressive player, when you feel you have them dominated. This type of player will often bet their whole stack away trying to drive you out of a pot where you have them beat; but that same player may be smart enough to fold to a raise. (Example: the other night in a home game I raised pre-flop with AQ and was called by a guy I had no respect for. Total LAgg. Flop came KTx and I just checked to him. He bet half the pot and I called, feeling I was probably ahead even with no pair, and in any case had aces and jacks as definite outs. Turn was my jack; I cold-called his big bet. River was a nine; he bet, I finally raised - just equal to his bet, no larger - and he called. Flipped over A9. The guy was betting down with nothing and at the end somehow believed his pair of nines might walk. That's the kind of player you want to cold call all night long.)

3. Pre-flop to a moderate raise, with a respectable hand. I'm talking about low to middle pairs; suited connectors; AQ suited; AK suited or unsuited. Say a guy in early position raises 1-3x BB, why would you re-raise with any of these hands? But you don't want to fold either (especially if there's multiple players). You cold call there and look for a good hand to get a lot of profit from. (OK, you might re-raise with AQ/AK if his raise was particularly weak. But most of the time there's no reason to get into raise wars with vulnerable hands like those. Yet you don't really want to fold them to a moderate raise, either, particularly if you have position in the hand.)

4. On the river, when you are uncertain of where you stand, but your hand is strong. Let's say you made a straight on the turn, but the river brings a third of a suit, or pairs the board (and your opponent has been betting pretty hard, making it possible that he filled up). The other guy bets 1/2 the pot. Why get into a raise war right there? You're getting good pot odds on your hand, which only needs to hold up 1 time in 4 to make this a good call. So just call.

[Zangief]

Dale, I think your analysis is great and I agree with all of it.

After I read him for AA/KK, I should have taken a closer look at his stack for my implied odds on making a set. Once I saw that the implied odds were not large enough, I should have trusted my read and folded.

Thanks for taking the time to comment, everyone.

[Greedo017]

"Seriously though, what is the logic behind "never cold call?" Sometimes it pays to be submissive. This was a perfect example of one of those times."

nope. this was a perfect example of a time it would pay to fold. calling to hit a set is horrible horrible odds, and you basically can only be helped by a set. if the flop comes rags and he pushes - you fold? if not why not push preflop. flop comes a or k, he pushes, you fold. i don't even think you can make a mediocre argument for calling this.