I can't beleive I laid this down...

[Fnord]

UTG is some short stack that just bought in.
SB is passive.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is UTG+1 with A, Q.
UTG raises, Fnord 3-bets, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB caps, BB folds, UTG calls, Fnord calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 6, A, 2 (3 players)
SB bets, UTG raises, Fnord folds, SB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 3 (2 players)
SB checks, UTG checks.

River: (8.50 BB) 2 (2 players)
SB checks, UTG checks.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Results in white below:
UTG shows Kc 3s (two pair, threes and twos).
SB shows Qh Qc (two pair, queens and twos).
Outcome: SB wins 8.50 BB.

[scgolfer]

I cant either, I thought thats part of the reason limit can be better than NL. The most it could have cost you was a couple more bets. I did have the same thing happen to me the other night> I had AQ as well and three people saw a raised pot. Flop comes down AK8. I was in worse position than you, being in the middle. The first person bet, I raised and the last person reraised. I m thinking AK or trips, and I am caught in the middle. They calmed down and everyone just called down to river, and 1st guy had AJ and the last had QQ. I thought I didnt have a chance.

[scgolfer]

Are you sure you didnt just hit the wrong button? hehehe

{This post has been removed}

[Xianti]

Tighter than a baby turtle's anus!

[allLiving]

Why not all in?

[Fnord]

SB caps me with:

AA - 1 way
AK - 8 ways
KK - 6 ways
QQ - 4 ways

He didn't seem the sort to cap with JJ/TT/AQ/AJish hands. In a previous hand he checked the flop (in pretty good positon) with top pair no kicker and called the turn/river burning me for a couple BB. So, if I'm ahead, I wasn't sure if he'd bet into an Ace.

Was unsure WTF UTG was up to, nor how hard he'd push with not much of anything. So my thinking was it was going to cost me a ton of bets to call this down if I'm behind.

Once I realized what UTG was up to, I took some back. But dang, that hurts.

[michael1123]

Wow, I don't think I'd ever lay that down in limit. I could definitely lay that down in NL though, given the right circumstances and a very big opening bet followed by a very big raise.

Even in NL, I'd call and see how they react on the turn if they bet and raised small.

[Fnord]

Wow, I don't think I'd ever lay that down in limit. I could definitely lay that down in NL though, given the right circumstances and a very big opening bet followed by a very big raise.

Even in NL, I'd call and see how they react on the turn if they bet and raised small.

If I'm going to lay it down, I think I got to do it on the flop. The key here is that the cap and flop bet was by a passive player, so it was easy to put him on a range of hands. Still it was a bad laydown.

Consider:
What are the chances I have the best hand?
What are the chances I have the best hand at showdown?
How much is it going to cost to see showdown relative to the pot?

If I'm ahead, Passive folds to my 3-bet and maybe silly player calls me down. If I'm behind, we cap the flop and silly could easily force a cap on the turn + river.

[Fnord]

I got back at Silly later...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with A, 2.
7 folds, Button (SillyPlayer) calls, SB completes, Fnord raises, Button (SillyPlayer) calls, SB folds.

Flop: (5 SB) 7, 4, 9 (2 players)
Fnord bets, SillyPlayer raises, Fnord calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) K (2 players)
Fnord bets, SillyPlayer calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 7 (2 players)
Fnord bets, SillyPlayer folds.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

[michael1123]

Right, but calling that one more bet at the flop would've given you a lot of information. If SB raised again, you know you're beat. If they just call, you probably have them, and should show them down.

In NL it would be more important to see how they reacted at the flop and turn than in limit though.

[Fnord]

Right, but calling that one more bet at the flop would've given you a lot of information. If SB raised again, you know you're beat. If they just call, you probably have them, and should show them down.

I'm 3-betting or folding. I get more information seeing if Passive wants to cap and/or call 2 cold and if Silly really wants to go nuclear. He wouldn't be too far from correct calling 1 more bet chasing his set.

In NL it would be more important to see how they reacted at the flop and turn than in limit though.

Disagree. In NL against reasonably solid players the bet sizes are so big relative to the pot you have less room to play around with second best hands. Partiulary in Party Poker short stack NL.

[michael1123]

Fnord, did you read my first post? Obviously in NL its much more dangerous to get involved with the 2nd best hand, which is why I said it was an easy call in limit, a dangerous call in NL.

But, if these players had bet the minimum and then raised the minimimum on the flop, I'd still call and see how the players reacted from there, as you don't really have much information about these guys hands yet at all.

So I'm saying that even with the danger of getting involved with a 2nd best hand in NL, for two cheap bets its still worth calling to gain more information about the hand and see if you're ahead or behind. A hand that is beat by you won't be making a big bet on the turn, or reraising if you call on the flop, and then you could take the lead.

In limit, its very different though. I'd personally just call that last bet on the flop, and see if SB reraises. If not, I'm coming out firing on the turn.