What would u rather see...AA or AK?

[EddieBoy]

I saw both and got cracked with them both last night....Am I wrong in that I think AK is a better hand?

[fishstick]

i've had more success with AKs.

that's probably just me.

[toekneechin]

my average winnings/hand are higher for AK than AA or KK.

[ttanaka]

AA is the strongest hand to hold, it may seem like you've had bad luck with this hand because we all remember the times they get cracked, but odds are odds, and AA is the big time odds favorite to beat any hand on any table against any player.

[Toasty]

AA everytime for me, i'd also take KK everytime and maybe even QQ. I think AK might be my voodoo cards as i rarely win with them to the point I have stopped raiseing with them pre-flop and slow play them. I lost to many times pre-flop to justify it. I know this is wrong and everything i have read on the net and in books tells me its an easy raise, but, after flopping nothing all the time and having to bluff to win pots with it, I decided to slow play them until I have more experiance or they start hitting the flop better.

Also, i'm currently trying to play with a minimised variance as to not get down when i lose.

[SteveO]

I strongly disagree w/ thoughts on AK and tend to agree w/ Toasty. I slowplay or small raise AK because I have not had much success taking down big pots. If your small raise does not narrow the field I have however been all in on AK before the flop against weak players who I know love to be all in w/ any low pair or AQ through A10.

AA and KK are far and above the best hands. I have been lucky in ring games as these hands are rarely busted on me or I lay them down if the board screws me. I have busted out of almost every multi table tournement with these hands. At lest 4 times i've played AA and KK and ran into a set of 7s and a set of 5s (today). Or I end up all in preflop with them and someond draws out AA v. A2 opponent made set of 2s.

Don't give up on AA and KK, play them aggressively and you will be happy in the long run.

Bet with you head, not over it.

[!Luck]

Steve: If i knew someone had a pocket pair i would not go all in pre flop with ako. The actually have a small edge on you. now if i knew they had Aq i would do it in a second. Just wondering why you would?

[Eric]

I prefer AA to AK. This is partially because the hand is already made. If there are only a few opponents then it may not need improvement in order to take the pot down. Also, you know you can move in any time you want if the pot gets big pre-flop.

AK has much more uncertainty. For example, if you move all in with it pre flop then you might be against a pair in which case it is probably a coin toss.

[Keys]

I personally prefer AK because AA stands out like a sore thumb: raise preflop, another raise after the flop, with no apparent regard for the board cards, big raise if the board shows a straight or flush draw. I very rarely get to show my AA or KK, but quite often when i make top pair i'll get someone to go all in against my AK, earning a lot more cash.

[SteveO]

In response, I know a pocket pair has an small statistical edge over AK but I will go all in preflop with it against a player I know is weak. You really need to know the player and there are lots of them on $25NL who go all in on any A(big) or pocket pair. It is fun to get in a race now and again if they have the pocket pair. Otherwise, there is a good chance that you have them dominated because they are overplaying their A again.

[EddieBoy]

Statistically AA is going to be better, I was just trying to get a feel for people's opinion's on it....

[heatman]

Player A has AA, Player B has AK. Big pot, pre-flop. Now who would you rather be?

I've never gone all in with AK and felt good about it, especially when I consider that the people most likely to put me there have a great possibility of holding either AA or KK.

[BoondockSaint]

I have gone all in several times with AK and usually win but its when I see short stacks with like 4 bucks or something going all in. In tournaments I will go all in with AK a lot more.

[rascallysquirrel]

I disagree with slowplaying AK. If i intend to see the flop with these I'd rather have a limited amount of players in the hand with me. It also gives me information for when the flop comes. If it flops low, its a good chance I have the best hand. If the A or K come then I have the best kickers available and am weary of a set or something. I've lost with these many a time but I still raise them strong.

I'll take bullets and kowboys over AK anyday of the week.

[BoondockSaint]

Yeah i never slowplay AK either. In most cases it gets 3 dollars minimum. It depends a little on position but still I will never slowplay it.

[rascallysquirrel]

Last night I was playing a game $20 limit per round game. To re emphasize the importance of raising AK i'll share 2 back to back hands with you.

Late position i'm dealt AKo. Limpers all around, I raise maximum to $20. One caller, all in (like $18 or something.. i think he was on tilt). He shows J/7 suited. He catches a 7 on the river. Bad beat, oh well. I'll get him next time. Here's the thing: I did have the best hand till he paired up ( a bottom pair too) and if he had more money I could have played him out of the pot. The other players were commenting about how they would have had us beat etc. Which is the whole reason for the raise pre flop.

Next hand i'm dealt AKo again. I'm a little mad about the previous bad beat, but I decided to play strong and raise again to $20 pre flop. One caller, with a big stack. flop: Axx. hehehehe... i know he has an Ace. I raise $20 again, he calls. turn. $20, he calls. riv: K (hehehehehe) $20 and the call. I show 2 pairs. He shows A/7. I smile.

I love AK.

[Les_Worm]

I love AK but I will take AA over it any day. AA is a made hand and with AK I still have to draw.

[DrNoChance]

I personally feel AK is an overrated hand, and I know of a few big name poker players who feel the same. T.J. Cloutier ranks AK about the same in value as TT. I wouldn't agree with that, but I do feel it's overrated. Here's a few reasons why:

On the topic of going all-in before the flop with AK:

You're not going to see any action here unless you're beat, most likely. If your table image is strong at all, only KK or AA will call you (which dominate you) or everyone folds. You'll either win a little or lose a ton, most of the time.

We all know that AK is pretty much a coin toss against any non KK/AA pocket pair. But that's only if you see ALL 5 CARDS. And normally, this doesn't happen. If you don't see an A or K on the flop, you often will face a decent sized bet, and be forced to lay the hand down. You can't afford to chase here..if you don't flop to it, you almost always have to lay it down, IMO. If you raised with AK before the flop, you have to consider that the other guy probably has something decent if he stood your raise. If he has any pocket pair at all, you are way behind after the flop if you don't see an A or K. So while statistically AK is almost equal to QQ/JJ/TT/etc. you often won't see (or shouldn't pay to see) the turn/river cards unless you are both already pot comitted (such as having already gone all-in before the flop, which as I mentioned earlier can often be a mistake).

Just my thoughts. I've lost a ton of money on AK and AKs. I've lost a ton of money, period...so maybe I'm not the guy to listen to

[jobupoker]

Is there a hand someone hasn't lost a ton of money on?

No offense, I just feel that certainly you would rather have AA but in the grand scheme of things you have to play AK like the big hand that it is. Otherwise we'll be talking about how much money we could have won with AK.

I play AK strong preflop but not as strong as AA. I don't want to feel bad about laying it down if i don't hit the flop. And I'm always happy to win the pot before the flop even shows.

When you do hit your A or K on the flop its all worth it.

[BoondockSaint]

Just a note on AK. I play it strong preflop too and if I'm in late position with tons of limpers I play it super strong. I have found myself too many times betting 3 bucks after like 7-8 guys limp in and then having like 5 of them call it and I dont want that many people to see the flop. If there are 6 people or more limped in and I have AK I will raise it 5 dollars. Usually it gets me the pot right there. Well I guess I shouldnt say usually since I've only done it twice but it got me the pot both times. Kind of a sorry pot for AK but I hateeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee people outdrawing me and taking my stack.

[Fnord]

AK (and AQ, KQ, etc.) is a very tricky hand to play. Here is some advise that's helped me, although I don't have the numbers on how well I play the hand.

Make a callable pre-flop raise. Don't raise to 6x the BB on a table with 50% rational players. You'll get what you went rooting for.

If it's heads up, be inclined to bet just about any flop 75% or so. Fold to a (check) raise.
If 2 others see the flop be a little more careful. Having position helps a lot because you can check the turn for your 5th card.
If 3 or more other see the flop and you miss the flop, check + fold unless the situation just screams steal. You got approximate odds on flopping your Ace. Leave it at that.

If it's a family pot and you hit, brace for impact. By the time you bet enough to protect your pair on a PP NL stack you will have almost no hope of laying down to a better hand. Just ask Heatman

Also adjust for calling stations. If there is one in the pot be less inclined to bet out a miss and more inclined to take a free 4rth card if you can get it.

[heatman]

I've bled all over the place with AK in the past month or so and I am an expert on (at least a few) of the mistakes you can make with AK. I'm sure I've lost more times on this hand than I've won. And when I lose with this hand, I often lose big, like

If it's a family pot and you hit, brace for impact. By the time you bet enough to protect your pair on a PP NL stack you will have almost no hope of laying down to a better hand. Just ask Heatman

This has happened to me twice recently. While it hurt at the time, there is a very good (but expensive lesson) in those experiences. Both hands are posted


http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...528&highlight=

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...594&highlight=

Biggest lesson learned:

Don't let the relief of hitting one of your cards talk you into believing you have a powerhouse so that you stop thinking!

With almost every other hand I am an EV kind of player. I try to think about the possibilities of what the other guy has, weigh that against my pot odds or implied odds, and make the correct play. Even with AA or KK I'm willing to lay it down, and have, if the flop and post flop play is bad. Sometimes I play by the gut, especially when I know someone's tendencies, but in general I think! I weigh the situation and make a decision based on something. But not with AK!

Once I hit that TPTK, I abandon rationality and start thinking:

- He's on an A (or K) and I"ve got him kicked!
- I am so lucky that I hit on this flop!
- Holy crap, that was a big re-raise
- I'm sure glad I've got the big kicker, call! Re-raise!
- Where the heck did that come from - Rebuy!

My standard AK play pre-flop is to make a raise that I think will get two callers or less at that table. In both big beats, I ended up with way more than that. This should be a warning that I'm now way at risk, and need to be cautious. In both cases above, it wasn't. ( I am so lucky, I hit on this flop!)

Given too many callers, I've still got a strong hand. But when I get called on a big raise by a strong player, or more than one average player, I need to be thinking! Unfortunately, I wasn't. ( "He's on an Ace and I've got him kicked!) Especially if I've been the aggressor and I still get called, I need to pay attention. A strong player is putting me on AA, KK or AK, and if he's calling - in most cases, he's got me beat.

Once my raise on the flop has been called, I need to be able to make the hard choices. This is where I'm still a little queasy. Given the level of play on PP NL tables, I'm still a little reluctant to lay this baby down. Here I need to think about what it is going to cost me to see the hand out. In the Fnord bust, it was another $10 or so, because I started out on a $25 stack. In the latter case, it was $65 on the turn against a $200 pot. All I could see was $ signs. IF I had been thinking, I probably should have folded after 22 called on the flop.

AK is a powerful hand if it hits, but even then it is usually only top pair, top kicker. There are many, many hands that can beat it. Any Ax, Kx who stuck around can hit two pair against you. Any pocket pair can hit their set. Any crazy on a flush/straight draw may have the pot odds to call you down after a bunch of callers on the first round.

Don't quit thinking!

[Fnord]

Once my raise on the flop has been called, I need to be able to make the hard choices.

In both busts you got your TPTK bet into, giving you even less room to maneuver. Which is exactly the situation I (and probably the other guy) is setting up when we hit a set with an Ace on the board. Bet out something (I prefer to keep it callable) and hope TP is there to take over the hand. By then he's pretty much committed to wager the rest of his stack given the uncertainty of his position and cards to come.

[johnnyawe]

I don't like AK when I flop a pair of aces. The reason is because everyone on PP plays Ax, and calls Ax to the river or showdown. Maybe its irrational, but I always feel like there is a great chance that they will hit 2 pair or that they already have. Especially if there is more than one caller.

If I have AK and I flop a pair of Kings, then I feel like I'm pretty much in control. I don't think as many people play Kx, and I'm pretty confident I'm going to have the nuts as long as a straight or flush doesn't hit.

[Xianti]

If I have AK and I flop a pair of Kings, then I feel like I'm pretty much in control. I don't think as many people play Kx, and I'm pretty confident I'm going to have the nuts as long as a straight or flush doesn't hit.

I'm starting to feel the same way, Natural -- but ONLY at PartyPoker (as you've stated). I can't remember how many times I've been called when betting the pot (or more!) after pairing the Ace on the flop with my King kicker and someone else with Ax catches a weak second pair on the turn or river.

I've been playing more at PokerStars lately and the players generally seem to play tighter than at PartyPoker. I think I like that, as they are a bit more predictable and respect strong bets.

[Toasty]

That logic seems flawed, you have just as much chance of making two pair as they do and if neither of you make 2 pair then you win. To lose AK to Ax they MUST hit their second pair, you are a 70% fav.

Remember you will only make a split two pair on the flop 2% of the time and that's the same for your opponents. I think you will lose more money playing them cautiously then if you palyed them more aggressivly.

You may be giving people odds to draw to OESDs and FDs. Maniacs will also try to buy the pot at your show of weakness.

[Xianti]

That logic seems flawed...

I know. I guess it's just that thing where you remember the losses with big hands more than you remember the wins.

[DrNoChance]

I'll say this about AK....I've starting liking it a lot more ever since I've starting limping in and not raising with it from the front (I still raise with it from the back).

When you raise from the front and get called, and you miss your flop, where are you? Do they have a PP and have you beat? Should you bet at the pot and try to steal it? It's much, much riskier to bet at a rag flop from the front with AK. Different story, however, when you raise from the back and get called by people in front of you. Rag flop comes once again....they check....now you can feel much more confidant that they don't have a PP (they didn't raise pre-flop before you did, and now they have checked). It's much safer to bet now and attempt to steal.

I don't see AK as being that much more powerful that AQ/KQ/AJ....33% of the time you will catch a strong flop, 66% of the time you won't. AK has the advantage of never losing to a better kicker if you pair up, and also never having an overcard to your pair turn up. AK is a nice hand, but I'm starting to play it like TT...strong from the back, weak from the front.

[Humphrind]

DrNoChance Said:

I'll say this about AK....I've starting liking it a lot more ever since I've starting limping in and not raising with it from the front (I still raise with it from the back).

When you raise from the front and get called, and you miss your flop, where are you? Do they have a PP and have you beat? Should you bet at the pot and try to steal it? It's much, much riskier to bet at a rag flop from the front with AK. Different story, however, when you raise from the back and get called by people in front of you. Rag flop comes once again....they check....now you can feel much more confidant that they don't have a PP (they didn't raise pre-flop before you did, and now they have checked). It's much safer to bet now and attempt to steal.

I don't see AK as being that much more powerful that AQ/KQ/AJ....33% of the time you will catch a strong flop, 66% of the time you won't. AK has the advantage of never losing to a better kicker if you pair up, and also never having an overcard to your pair turn up. AK is a nice hand, but I'm starting to play it like TT...strong from the back, weak from the front.

Well, though I like your logic (I'm a very tight player anyway) I have a different opinion. I just can't give cards away with a strong hand. I've heard some of the best players are "tight-aggressive" They play very tight until they get the good hands, then they strike. Even if you've had a lot of bad beats with AK (s or o) you still can't deny that it's one of the best starting hands out there. When you hold [Ah, Ks] And the flop comes out [2d, 8s, 5s] That should make you happy. You know your pre-flop raise has scared off any low cards. You only have to fear Ax or low pocket pair on calling stations and maniacs, and they will make themselves known.

If you look at this situation than maybe you'll agree with me. A good flop, [A,K,6] or a bad flop [2,2,8] are both good to see. You might even say there are more flops that will help you than will hurt you, but only if you raise accordingly pre-flop.

[DrNoChance]

I've had terrible luck with betting at the pot vs. a rag flop when I'm out of position with AK, but maybe I need to consider that I've just been unlucky. I do know that it's generally considered to be a poor play to not raise a good hand pre-flop (and don't get me wrong, I raise JJ-AA up from all positions almost always).

Thanks for the feedback.

[Humphrind]

Is there a hand someone hasn't lost a ton of money on?

I've been OK with 27o, also 23o and 35o. Unless I'm in the blind, I usually don't lose any money with these.