At what point does practicing online with play money become pointless?

[SuperInu]

I just started playing no limit a week ago. I've played around 300 hands on BoDog, all with play money. I have been playing a very tight game, nut peddling I suppose it's called. I'm consistently winning, and sometimes opponents do seem to care about the game. While I still have a lot to learn, and am not quite ready to play for real money, I'm curious if I'm gaining anything at all by playing with fake money, or if I'm going to develop bad habits? I know that playing this strategy might not work in the "real world", any advice for newbs on when to really jump in? What comfort level is needed, what areas of knowledge, etc?

[Shotglass]

To answer the question in your title: pointless as soon as you sit down.

Deposit around $150 or so and start at lowest stakes.

[tripaces]

As soon as you learn the rules

[daviddem]

Deposit $50 and play 2NL. Pick your site carefully if possible to avoid getting raped by the rake (like on Party Poker for example).

[rpm]

As soon as you learn the rules

if your goal is poker progression, i've got to agree with the above.

[SuperInu]

I am not planning on playing online as I'm confused about the legality of, I was planning on playing live at a local casino at some point, probably going with friends and co-workers, but also on my own. Any suggestions for playing live for the first time? I think it probably requires more care than online, since online you can shut out a lot of the noise and not worry about giving tells, etc.

[daviddem]

live: 10% rake and 30 hands an hour... I'd only play tournaments live

[SuperInu]

live: 10% rake and 30 hands an hour... I'd only play tournaments live

I take it that the rake is high, and 30 hands an hour is bad? That's 2 minutes per hand, isn't that quite a bit of fast playing? Sorry if my inquiry seems dumb, I'm really new to this. What does online play offer for rakes? Is the legality of online play for players settled yet? I can't seem to get a straight answer (does it depend on what state you live in?)? Thanks!

[daviddem]

Well live you can only play one table at a time, and if I am not mistaken 30 hands per hour is decently fast for live. Online you play about 60 hands per hour at any one table, and you can play 10 tables at the same time if you like, so that's now 600 hands per hour.

If you study the statistical variance of a game like poker, even being a decent long term winner, you will find that it takes thousands of hands to have a near certainty of being in the green. Decent winners regularly experience loosing streaks of 10000 hands, even more. Live that is 333 hours of play. That is a whole month if you play 12 hours a day.

If you study the effect of rake over your win rate, you will find out that a very significant portion of your potential gains are eaten up by the rake. The rake can actually turn a marginally winning player into a looser. The smaller your average long term win rate, the more the rake will eat up your potential profits, and the more likely it will make you a looser.

Online at the microstakes, the rake is about 6 to 7% on decent sites, less when you get to 50nl and up. Live it's 10%, not counting that you have to pay for your drinks, tip the dealers and the waitresses, etc.

On the other hand, live games are generally softer than online games for a given stake. If you play 50nl live, it's a MUCH softer game than 50nl online.

But the 30 hands per hour, the rake, and the fact that you have to play tight to beat the low stakes live games, you'll die of boredom before you start learning anything. I am used to play 8 tables of cash online (about 400-500 hands per hour), I tried live cash and it's painful. The only times I like to play cash is with friends while getting drunk and smoking weed, or in tournaments.

[supa]

The problem with practicing w/ play money online is that the worst players at the lowest real money stakes are way better than the majority of play money players. Because of this the dynamic is so different that it be comes a completely different game.

Trying to adapt anything you learn at play money tables to a live casino game would be a redic bad idea.

[SuperInu]

Well live you can only play one table at a time, and if I am not mistaken 30 hands per hour is decently fast for live. Online you play about 60 hands per hour at any one table, and you can play 10 tables at the same time if you like, so that's now 600 hands per hour.

If you study the statistical variance of a game like poker, even being a decent long term winner, you will find that it takes thousands of hands to have a near certainty of being in the green. Decent winners regularly experience loosing streaks of 10000 hands, even more. Live that is 333 hours of play. That is a whole month if you play 12 hours a day.

If you study the effect of rake over your win rate, you will find out that a very significant portion of your potential gains are eaten up by the rake. The rake can actually turn a marginally winning player into a looser. The smaller your average long term win rate, the more the rake will eat up your potential profits, and the more likely it will make you a looser.

Online at the microstakes, the rake is about 6 to 7% on decent sites, less when you get to 50nl and up. Live it's 10%, not counting that you have to pay for your drinks, tip the dealers and the waitresses, etc.

On the other hand, live games are generally softer than online games for a given stake. If you play 50nl live, it's a MUCH softer game than 50nl online.

But the 30 hands per hour, the rake, and the fact that you have to play tight to beat the low stakes live games, you'll die of boredom before you start learning anything. I am used to play 8 tables of cash online (about 400-500 hands per hour), I tried live cash and it's painful. The only times I like to play cash is with friends while getting drunk and smoking weed, or in tournaments.

Are you able to be your best while playing 8 tables at once? Serious question, not trying to sound smart. Also, when you play online, what size tables do you usually play?

[supa]

When you're multitabling you're almost always giving up some sort of edge, however your hourly goes up significantly enough to reap much larger profits. That's given that you aren't playing so many tables that you become a losing player because you've lost that much of you're edge. Some people can 24 table and show huge profits while 6, 8, or 12 is the most others can deal with.

Also, when you're learning you obv want to start with 1 table and add tables over time when you get comfortable playing more, your win rate will tell how much is too much.

[jyms]

Playing less than 20% of hands has you playing only 1 or 2 tables at a time even though you have 8 open. Once your here for a bit you will learn about software and huds that makes it so much easier to play even 10-24 tables. But that's for another time and not someone in your position. I would spend a day or two reading everything you can in the BC stickies. and also the FTR threads post by rpm here

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ml#post2035545

[daviddem]

8 tables is actually not much, especially if you play a tight preflop game (fold 80+% of hands). Also with experience it takes only one second to make a lot of the easier decisions. Occasionally you find yourself having to play two hands at a time to the river, but that is easily feasible if you use your time banks wisely.

And yes obviously HUDs help, you don't have to remember how each player plays at each table, his stats are displayed by the HUD so that gives you a decent idea at a glance.

You will find that most people here play multiple tables, some up to 24 at a time (don't try this at home!).

[Zorkion]

(i am drunk) but i would just like to take this moment to point out just how much the members of this community are willing to provide even to some of the most beginner questions. op, you have come to the right place, stay and you might just find the success youre dreaming of.

</drunkmessage>

[daven]

16 tables is actually not much, even if you play a normal preflop game (vpip= true 20-30% of hands).

fyp

[BlackRain79]

As soon as you learn the rules

Yup this. I played a ton of play money myself many years ago though. So don't feel rushed. Its just, play money isn't real poker. People don't try like they do with real money where there is something on the line.

[TheLongGrind]

the moment u start