25nl 3bet multiway pot

[chatzilla]

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG TonnaMunz ($46.91)
UTG+1 ivailo 49 ($3.20) 22/9 over 100 hands
MP1 -Myst3rious- ($27.50)
MP2 JohnSilverr ($9.40)
MP3 molini ($25)
CO oskra1 ($25) just sat down 0/0 over 3 hands
BTN pokerstarjqk ($28.04)
SB jianshao777 ($10)
BB ElectrO85 ($25.70)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 9 players) TonnaMunz is UTG
TonnaMunz raises to $1, ivailo 49 calls $1, 3 folds, oskra1 raises to $3.50, 3 folds, TonnaMunz calls $2.50, ivailo 49 goes all-in $2.20

PF when UTG+1 3bet it looks like hes trying to squeeze us out and get the shortyfish All in so I estimate he opened up his value range to something like TT+ AK

If we 4bet were only getting called by better.We are way ahead of shorty's calling range something like 22+,ATs+,KQs,AQo+

so atm were a 40% favorite

Flop: ($10.55, 3 players, 1 all-in)

Now I am super unsure what to do here c/c? to keep his range wide?
b/f? i think TT-QQ would flat my cbet. Not sure what he does with AK.

do we ever want to get it in here? I imagine not because he has AA KK and AhKh way more then QQ,JJ,TT or AKo with one heart

nit fold pre or wut?

[!Luck]

A think an argument can be made for folding pre, due to his sizing. I think this is classic wa/wb. On this flop go ahead and bet like 4-6 and get it in (though this seems terrible).

!luck

[chatzilla]

haha yeah defiantly a cringey spot. Any reason for the sizing? to get AK to jam as a semibluff? What's the plan if we bet 5, he calls and the turn is an Ace? I think safely we could knock out AA and KK then. c/c anything less then 2/3's pot?

[kfaess]

TBH, I don't really know what to do here.

I think folding pre is probably best. Obviously he has to have a value hand because he's willing to put the fishy player all in pre. Therefore, our equity is worse than a normal 3b from most people. Combine that with the fact that when we flat we're going to be oop and have no idea what to do.

So, I like a fold pre I think.

As played, OTF I think I like a c/c best because I think he's both calling a lead and betting when checked to with TT/JJ. However, I think he's more likely to bet AK when checked to than to call a bet with it.

[daviddem]

OK, no condescension or whatever meant here, and I am far from playing 25NL, but honestly, when you flat pre, you have to have a plan for the flop, especially for the hand that you are most likely to flop which is an overpair. If I understand correctly, the very reason you called his 3b is that you thought that you were ahead of his 3b range. With this flop, you still are ahead of that same range, and it is likely that he will cbet a lot when checked to, so for that reason, as kfaess said, I think I like c/c better. Besides you might even pick up some fold equity on a heart turn vs hands that beat you (and a lot of likely outs to a Q high flush when he calls your bluff).

On the other hand, if your reason for calling was strictly to set mine, then you missed and c/f.

The easiest way to avoid the tough spot is to fold pre and wait for reads, which correct me if I am wrong, you are much better off to have when you flat a 3b OOP (even IP FWIW). If over the next orbits the guy proves to be an 8/6 nit, you're going to beat yourself for your lost stack, right? Even to set mine, with these odds, you need very specific reads that he is going to pay you often when you hit.

[Roid_Rage]

He's probably going to play somewhat straightforward with most of the money currently in the pot being in the sidepot where the fish is all in.

I'm c/c'ing the flop and probably c/f to any barrels. Probably not betting at any point unless we bink a Q.

Folding pre is so nitty it hurts.

[daviddem]

Hard to c/f after calling a significant flop bet imo, given the pot odds.

[Shotglass]

Folding pre is wayyyyy toooooo nitty.
The flat keeps his range wide enough that he could still hold a few hands that we're beating. c/c to the river if the turn and river's blanks.
If he checks behind OTF and the turn's a blank then I might lead out about 1/3 - 1/2 pot.

I agree with you about not getting it in here because then we're only getting called by what crushes us and we really don't want to build a big pot when we might be way behind.

[daviddem]

I don't know if it's that nitty in FR vs a random who 3b the UTG open of Hero who is unknown to him (the only info he has is that Hero has already stacked someone because Hero has a double stack)

Now maybe at 25NL 3b and squeezes are super-common, not sure.

[philly and the phanatics]

what are his stats, theres no way folding pre is waaaay too nitty...do you have any stats or reads?

[daviddem]

OP said that villain just sat down

[Donachello]

folding pre is hilariously unbalanced and nitty. Are you saying you don't have a single hand in your calling range here? Enjoy being 3bet to death OOP for the rest of your poker career.

[daviddem]

As I said I play lower stakes, where I think it is rarely a mistake not to call a (properly sized) 3b OOP, particularly without reads. Things may well be different at 25NL but I'd still prefer to have reads before I do it.

To be fair, the main point of my post was not that the call pre is horrible, it was that it's not OK to call, flop the most likely hand we can flop and not have a plan of how to proceed. If OP had had a plan, the hand would have played itself and this thread would not exist because there would have been no "tough spot".

[Openside]

As I said I play lower stakes, where I think it is rarely a mistake not to call a (properly sized) 3b OOP, particularly without reads. Things may well be different at 25NL but I'd still prefer to have reads before I do it.

To be fair, the main point of my post was not that the call pre is horrible, it was that it's not OK to call, flop the most likely hand we can flop and not have a plan of how to proceed. If OP had had a plan, the hand would have played itself and this thread would not exist because there would have been no "tough spot".

+1.

[Roid_Rage]

Hard to c/f after calling a significant flop bet imo, given the pot odds.

Doesn't seem that hard to me.

[kmind]

folding pre is hilariously unbalanced and nitty. Are you saying you don't have a single hand in your calling range here? Enjoy being 3bet to death OOP for the rest of your poker career.

Not sure what this has to do with the stakes? NO ONE at 25NL is going to know if you have a calling range in this spot and the situation always differ from person to person so it's not like this situation will come up often at all.

[chatzilla]

hhhmm yeah my plan was defiantly hazy. I just felt like it was too nitty to fold here. I could of posted the hand up to PF and been like "whats our plan when we call?" But yeah on the flop nothing has really changed except hes not going to be calling with AK so yeah c/c i guess

Philly i posted my stats next to the stack sizes.

Alright so pre we can fold <JJ here QQ is open for debate. AA, KK we 4bet, ship. What about AK or AKs easier to fold pre? if we call and get the same flop b/f? like 1/2-2/3s

[Donachello]

Not sure what this has to do with the stakes? NO ONE at 25NL is going to know if you have a calling range in this spot and the situation always differ from person to person so it's not like this situation will come up often at all.

Way to nit pick on a post that you disagree with because you have nothing substantial to offer the thread in the way of advice.

Yes, people don't know shit about balance at 25NL.
Yes, you will need to learn balance at some point in your poker career.
Yes, learning things at 25NL is cheaper than at 100NL.

That said, roid line is probably better than anything else suggested thus far.
Definitely flatting at least one and possibly just calling all the way down based on timing tells betsizing etc.

[mbiz]

I dont mind a fold pre, given its FR and micro stakes and you have 0 hands on villain (though this may be a reason not to fold since with a decent sample you can sometimes be SURE his range is tightsville whereas its a potential mistake to just assume), and im obviously a nit.

Also, you all go on about not folding pre then go on to say you are folding to bets. You call pre hoping to check down 3 streets?
edit: ok so no ones saying this but 'seems too nitty' is a bad reason to call or raise!

I'm not saying callign or raising is bad but im yet to see a convincing argument to do so, surely one exists with QQ but like i said im a nit.

edit: ok so wait i dont mind roids c/c flop but would it then be better to lead a non A or K turn instead of giving a free card and/or letting him barrel turn?

[kmind]

Way to nit pick on a post that you disagree with because you have nothing substantial to offer the thread in the way of advice.

Yes, people don't know shit about balance at 25NL.
Yes, you will need to learn balance at some point in your poker career.
Yes, learning things at 25NL is cheaper than at 100NL.

That said, roid line is probably better than anything else suggested thus far.
Definitely flatting at least one and possibly just calling all the way down based on timing tells betsizing etc.

Yep nothing substantial to add. That's why I saw a reply I disagreed with and wanted to help others. Learning to balance at 25NL makes no sense even if it's cheaper. I mean why do it unless you don't care about the money?

How is your post anymore important than mine? That makes ZERO sense. I believe that disagreeing with yours offers more advice than your original post tbh.

If you want my advice on the HH, preflop can go either way between folding and calling. I don't have enough experience at FR to know what to expect here. Readless, I'd usually call here and c/c flop and c/f turn.

[daven]

fold pre is ok i guess, so is calling. If you call pre then i don't think you have much option but to check-call flop.

[thelorax]

ok so pre his range is prob weighted towards AK with his sizing, but he can also have JJ+ obviously.
Folding pre is fine..idk why you guys are saying its lol nitty.
After calling pre, as Daven said, you pretty much have to c/c the flop.
Im folding most turns if he barrels again.

[Roid_Rage]

Folding PF is nitty because the fish in the pot is all in with the majority of the money in the pot belonging to him which will make the other guy in the pot play his range pretty face up postflop. If everyone was 100bb+ deep here, it'd be a trivial fold/call to set mine.

Since the fish is all in though, the reg is 100% going to bet his JJ+, and maybe cbet his whiffed AK sometimes, but he's probably not barreling unimproved with it, which is why c/c'ing the flop and then folding to any barrels is likely the best line to take in this particular spot.

If all 3 involved were 100bb+ deep, I'd MAYBE flat it sometimes and fold it fairly often, and then c/f pretty much any flop I didn't bink a Q on.

[LkySlevinsNo1Fan]

fold pre, but deffo dont donk flop if you call pre.

I love to jam AK here vs idiots who donk fold TT-QQ then laugh at them.

[surviva316]

pre is a call because it's a squeeze from an unknown. if this were a reg, it'd be a fold. who cares if it's nitty, no onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnne's ever exploiting you. hell, if they start to "exploit" you by 3b'ing your UTG opening range super wide, then MOTHERFUCKING SHIP THE EVs! lol

btw, this becomes more and more of a fold the higher up you go (through 200nl at least)

[rpm]

pre is a call for me. i mean we have 40% vs QQ+,AK, which is probably his tightest 3b range. the fact that the pot will be locked means that attempting to bluff you postflop is less attractive for him, because he can't have fold equity against an all-in player against whom he will still have to contest the pot (long sentence short: he's likely to play straightforward postflop for reasons dranger mentioned). which makes me more inclined to call pre. as much as 4x opening/folding hands as strong as QQ is exploitable/nitty/whatever (that would mean if we're opening 77+,AQs+,AKo then we're folding ~75-80% of our UTG opening range to 3bets), it is rarely going to be exploited by our opponents, and we're just going to be getting owned postflop by flatting ranges far weaker than our opponents OOP in 3b pots by trying to play theoretically "unexploitably". so i don't think that "it's too nitty and/or exploitable" argument really holds up. not at 25nl anyway.

note: i suck at maths and theory and shit. so i'm probably wrong.

[Razvan729]

you said his preflop range for 3bet is TT+ , AK

preflop i call

flop- i c/c cause like that i keep his range wide and get value from from AK, TT, JJ, since he will bet on flop most of his range. by c/c i dont give him the chance to bluff raise me, cause we deff fold on a flop raise.

turn- here is where i begin to wonder how to play
if turn card is T,J,K,A or a heart, for me is a deff c/f
but how about if turn is blank? what do we do there? i dont like betting for the same reasons on flop, but if he bets TT+ when we check turn why do we fold cause we have 50% vs TT+.

for me the turn is the problem with his range TT+,AK, do you guys think when we check turn he checks back AK,TT,JJ and just bets AKhh, KK+? this is why you say turn is c/f?

[Roid_Rage]

It's a c/f for me razvan because on the turn if we decide to c/c again we're basically committed to calling a bet on the river because the pot is going to be pretty bloated and I really don't see him triple barreling us for value with TT/JJ that often, not to mention AK gets to decide whether or not he wants to barrel us sometimes and even when he does he's going to catch up some of the time.

After the flop the hand pretty much plays itself iyam

[daviddem]

What river bet? He's got $21.50 left behind on the flop. If he bets $7 and we call, the pot becomes $24.55 and he's got $14.50 behind. So if he bets the turn, he'll shove and be done with it, no? You really think he is going to bet $10 and leave $4.50 behind to bet them into a $45 pot on the river?

So if he barrel-shoves JJ+ on a blank turn after betting $7 on the flop (turn is blank about 2/3rd of the time), are you going to fold when your pot odds are 27% and your equity is 35.6%?

You c/c this flop, you go all the way imo (unless you had READS that he barrels only KK+ on the turn).

[Roid_Rage]

I didn't take note of stack sizes, but I kind of figured we'd be pretty shallow after he bets the flop since the pot is $10 and we're only 100bb deep to start.

I'm still c/c flop and c/f'ing to any action on the turn.

[bigspenda73]

folding PF is bad, probably c/shove flop