$5 AKo mid stage pre

[Onfire71]

Poker Stars $5.00+$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 8 players - View hand 1167299
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG+1: t1000 20 BBs
MP1: t1175 23.50 BBs
MP2: t1630 32.60 BBs
Hero (CO): t1670 33.40 BBs
BTN: t1000 20 BBs
SB: t2330 46.60 BBs
BB: t1320 26.40 BBs
UTG: t3375 67.50 BBs

Pre Flop: (t75) Hero is CO with A K
UTG raises to t135, UTG+1 calls t135, 2 folds, Hero calls t135, 1 fold, SB calls t110, 1 fold

with 33.40 BBs.. what's the best play here? assuming on a loose table/blinds.. just shove with 33BBs? flatcall or reraise to 550 for example and play some postflop?

[RiverMonster]

Onfire, I use your post to learn so grain of salt with my responses.

We have a raiser and a caller early in a tourney. I like the flat call here. If the flop misses we are in great position to steal with 1/2 psb if checked down to us. If the flop misses and villain bets we throw it away. There will be a better spot for us.

[fulksy]

having and reads helps but against random $5.50 player i usually just shove here. there's 345 in the pot and your ahead of both ranges.

[taipan168]

I agree with fulksy, against a random $5.50 player I would just shove it with the chips already in the pot.

We have a raiser and a caller early in a tourney. I like the flat call here. If the flop misses we are in great position to steal with 1/2 psb if checked down to us. If the flop misses and villain bets we throw it away. There will be a better spot for us.

I wouldn't bet a missed flop when there are 2+ opps in the pot including an UTG raiser.

[drmcboy]

wow for sure bet if the order is raiser checks, X flatters check, and you close the action. those are free position chips. If some people are checking to the raiser it's different.

I like raising 1/3 of your stack here, can't really think of hands shoving is better against.

[taipan168]

wow for sure bet if the order is raiser checks, X flatters check, and you close the action. those are free position chips. If some people are checking to the raiser it's different.

Buyin is relevant here, if your opps are loose/passive types who will check second pair but call a bet then I just check behind. At a higher buyin where the raiser might have a mid pocket pair or a hand like AQ and c/f if they miss I agree

I like raising 1/3 of your stack here, can't really think of hands shoving is better against.

What about hands like A-crap which may well call a preflop shove but give up on the flop if they miss?

[fulksy]

doesn't raising 1/3 of our chips here give our opponents a chance to call then shove the flop?

[drmcboy]

a crap

I don't know how we decide what 'A crap' he even opens with, let alone will flat with. I would think he'll decide pre what he's doing with AQ and maybe AJ and fold everything else to either play. Don't forget he'll still have UTG-1 behind. But if he will flat with A9+, KJ+ for example that seems like a win for us. Plus he might flat then give up when UTG+1 and then we shove. The idea he flats with all the same hands that he would call a shove with does not make sense to me.

passive opps

It is hard for me to believe semi bluffing with AK in that spot won't be profitable regardless of buy in. Using a default read that they always c/c sounds more like an excuse never to bluff to me. This isn't 2004, there are plenty of tight players at every level of MTTs these days, I doubt SNGs are much different. When was the last time you played a $5?

stop n go

what hands do you think they will do this with that won't call a shove pre?

[fulksy]

Low PP might not call a shove but would be more then capable of doing a Stop n go with. if its a donk maybe even some sooted broadways.

[baudib]

This is sort of a fairly common but interesting spot.

I'm not quite sure why we shouldn't shove? UTG has a strong range but UTG+1 is terrible and should be considered dead money. It'd be nice if we can get UTG to fold and get UTG+1 pot stuck with something stupid but I'm not sure that 3-betting to 1/3 accomplishes that

[drmcboy]

Low PP might not call a shove but would be more then capable of doing a Stop n go with. if its a donk maybe even some sooted broadways.

We have no reads one way or the other.

my opinion is that people will call more shoves with lower PPs because they 'put you on AK' rather than stop and go. Also, this only matters for UTG, but he won't know he can stop and go when he has to act. Maybe you guys have different generic reads, but with nothing else I'm always going to assume a 3 bet is stronger than a shove.

If he has KJs and your choices are shove and he'll fold or 3 bet and he'll stop and go why would we shove?

Would you all shove AA/KK?

[fulksy]

i agree reads would help.

i find at these stakes lots of players will call with a pp and when they see no ace they get er in.

Maybe you guys have different generic reads, but with nothing else I'm always going to assume a 3 bet is stronger than a shove.

bad players dont necessarily feel this way, and if this is the case wouldn't shoving AA/KK would be better then 3 betting.

against donks we don't know that one of them wont call a shove with KJs, where we would have great equity, if we 3 bet and does do a stop and go don't we loose lots of that equity.

[baudib]

I would shove KK+ here quite a bit.

[drmcboy]

Stop and goes are great since we're calling. If you played hands lately where you put in 1/3 of your stack pre and folded take a look at that right away because you pretty much had to make a mistake unless the whole table called.

re AA/KK is if you want to shove AK to get them to fold PPs it can't be a good play to shove AA/KK. Personally I'd flat here and pretty much any spot where it won't be hard to get stacks in.

you're hoping they might call with KJs but also hoping they fold a PP. I mean I'm sure those guys are out there but the exact opposite guys are out there too.

I'm not quite sure why we shouldn't shove?

It'd be nice if we can get UTG to fold

I would shove KK+ here quite a bit.

Again, you want to shove AK to max FE (I think?), and also shove KK+ to max FE?

[baudib]

I think you're 3-betting to $500 with AK to represent AA/KK and I'm shoving with AA/KK to represent AK.

[fulksy]

Stop and goes are great since we're calling. If you played hands lately where you put in 1/3 of your stack pre and folded take a look at that right away because you pretty much had to make a mistake unless the whole table called.

i don't generally put in 1/3 to fold which is why i shove, and that might be my problem.

[fulksy]

in before

i don't generally put in 1/3 to fold which is why i shove, and that Is my problem.

FYP

[drmcboy]

I think you're 3-betting to $500 with AK to represent AA/KK and I'm shoving with AA/KK to represent AK.

this makes sense except you implied we should shove AK too although your posts ITT are unclear and vague. If you're talking about balance, screw balance against a bunch of people you're never going to play again.

maybe you want to flat or fold?

[baudib]

-- I think shoving with JJ+/AK in this spot is reasonably standard, although it may be a tad early

-- I was trying to think out what we accomplish with 3-betting smaller.

Here are the scenarios that may result from 3-betting:
1. UTG folds and UTG+1 folds.
2. UTG folds and UTG+1 shoves
3. UTG folds and UTG+1 flats
4. UTG shoves and UTG+1 folds
5. UTG shoves and UTG+1 shoves
6. UTG flats, UTG+1 folds
7. UTG flats, UTG+1 flats
8. UTG flats, UTG+1 shoves

Am I wrong in thinking that Nos. 1, 2 and 8 seem to be the best scenarios? UTG shoving isn't terrible and we will win awesome pots a good part of the time, but surely we're doing much better against UTG+1's range than against UTG. Is it more likely that UTG folds something like 99 to a $500 bet here than a shove? It's certainly possible but am not sure.

[drmcboy]

You're also giving him two chances to fold it, so he has to fold a lot less to a 3 bet for a shove to be better. If he's flatting I doubt it's to call when you jam QT6 flops and if so he wasn't folding pre anyway.

Again, if you think the shove generates more FE, why would you do it with big pairs? It's like you're reading him for 22 when you have AK but JJ when you have KK.



Here is some 'standard' thinking from the past

calling to set mine getting 8/1 stack odds
never going broke with a queen in your hand before the flop
playing for the win in SNGs

and don't get me started on early.

[baudib]

early was a dumb statement,don't know what i was thinking.

edit: i've hardly gotten any sleep all week so probably shouldn't be playing or thinking about poker. also, i've played a lot of live SnGs lately and wow, the play is bad. i'm talking about people raise-folding AK with 8 BBs at a full table so i'm probably a tad warped in the brain all-around right now.

[taipan168]

When was the last time you played a $5?

Fair enough, it's been quite a while (in fact, it may well have been around 2004/05).

Would you all shove AA/KK?

No, I'd 3-bet 1/3 of my stack with these hands (and QQ and maybe JJ as well). However isn't the issue that AA and KK have much more equity on the flop than AK, and if we have AK and get called by a smaller PP, we want to see all 5 cards to maximise our equity? If we 3-bet and get called by a smaller PP, if we hit an A or K on the flop they most likely aren't calling unless they hit a set.

I take your point though about shoving potentially folding out hands that may call a 3-bet.

[fulksy]

so would love to plug a leak here, because readless i have usually been shoving here. doc explained it pretty well, is there any sort of agreement 3 betting > shoving?

[drmcboy]

we're always seeing all 5 cards so no worries there. You don't have to put all the money in pre to get that equity.

If 3 betting small is bad when we have AK because they get away when we hit and an A or K, why is it good with KK/QQ/JJ? If we have KK/QQ/JJ A/Ks will come more often (or just as often with KK) and they'll still fold. You're also either sometimes going to fold the best hand or get all the money in with a 2 outer.

[baudib]

Doc
one disadvantage I can see to this is that when we 3-bet and get called by pocket pairs we aren't getting paid off by QQ/JJ when we outflop them.

This is a huge chunk of our profit from AK -- trapping money from QQ/JJ pre and outracing them. plus the times that we get folds from 99/TT. of course this is balanced out by the times we lose but there's also the hands like AQ that call off pre and we win a huge pot when everything bricks vs. playing a smaller pot on raggy boards.