Monotone flop & Ace on turn makes TPTK + nut Flush draw. Call shove? (5NL, FR micros)

[rowhousepd]

With big slick and 4 players to monotone flop, I have a nut 4-flush draw w/ two huge overcards. I bet really small (just trying to build a pot, but perhaps this was unwise?) and the last to act villain over-raises. On the turn 4 people are splitting a big pot, I hit my TPTK w/ nut flush draw. Checked to UTG+2 who shoves. (He is a 13/7/1.8 nit. No other reads.)

Do I call since I do have SD value w/ my A and could make my flush? Is this an easy fold w/ 2 others to act after me? Did I play this hand horribly and that's what got me into this position in the first place begin with?

Full Tilt, $0.02/$0.05 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (UTG): $4.55
UTG+1: $4.95
UTG+2: $5
MP1: $2.50
MP2: $4.43
CO: $13.48
BTN: $5.17
SB: $5.11
BB: $9.15

Pre-Flop: A K dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero raises to $0.10, UTG+1 calls $0.10, UTG+2 calls $0.10, 5 folds, BB calls $0.05

Flop: ($0.42) 5 6 4 (4 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.15, UTG+1 calls $0.15, UTG+2 raises to $1.02, BB calls $1.02, Hero calls $0.87, UTG+1 calls $0.87

Turn: ($4.50) A (4 Players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets $3.88 and is All-In,
Herro?????

[celtic123]

Pre:

Your 2xbb mini raise does nothing / little to narrow the field.

edit : i see in another thread of yours

I'm pretty sure it was just a mis-click this hand, but I think I do this occasionally (bet small-ish, though not necessarily this small) because essentially I'm afraid of the pot getting huge and being pot-committed on the next street when a non-scary card comes and I'm still feeling ok about my hand. I think this is kind of fishy thinking though ... or am I wrong? (Keep in mind fellas, this is 5NL, and I'm trying to be one step above the very primitive micro mindset.)

You still have this problem of timid raises .

[daviddem]

[ ] hand history was properly converted
[ ] minraise preflop
[ ] bet 1/3rd pot on flop
[x] put your opponent on a goddamn range
[x] how to: analyze calling an all-in

[Shotglass]

Def need to raise bigger pf, more like $0.20. AK is a strong hand that doesn't like multiple partners. Try to get the hand down to one caller.

[OngBonga]

Hmm, we min raised pre with AK, we bet the flop really weak, we don't bother to put our opponent's on a range, and we don't know what our opponent tendancies are, and we still call ace high to a flop raise; all this adds up to us being a big fat FISH, so just call the all in because nut flush draws are unfoldable dammit.

Or, you could... Raise pre flop to at least $0.30, then put the callers on a range based on how often they are calling raises etc. With zero info, I'll stab a range of all pairs, all suited connectors 67+, suited aces and broadway for all three callers. These ranges are obviously a guess.

Once flop comes down, either bet properly, or check. When UTG raises, narrow his range. He's now got something like 67s 78s 33-JJ, though it helps a lot if we know more about villain, ie does he 3bet JJ pre flop, or what does he do with 33 on this flop? How does he play Ax diamonds?

As played, you have reasonable equity, so assess how much equity you have, and compare that to the size of the pot, the size of the all in and the strength of his range. You can do that with pokerstove and by taking the link that david left... http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ll-173396.html

*this post has been edited, I misread the flop because of the lack of suits*

[couriermike]

I think villain is beating TP ott and you don't have the odds to draw, so just fold. A standard play with your hand on that flop is to b/3b all-in, you could also c/c, or b/f vs a tight villain. Also, don't make these minbets and minraises, unless you're making a suckbet with the nuts. They're just giving away your fold equity and the initiative.

[rowhousepd]

First off, just a general q about preflop raises:

Is it ever OK to min-raise in EP? AK (though I guess more so w/ AKs even) is sort of a drawing hand -- one that could flop nut straight draws, nut/near-nut flush draws, and of course TPTKs. I was thinking it might be OK sometimes to make a small-ish raise EP, especially at a table of nits, w/ this kind of hand. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Alight, back to this hand....

i see in another thread of yours

You still have this problem of timid raises .

Ha! Yes, good research. I know, I think this is officially a leak of mine now. Thanks.

[ ] hand history was properly converted
[ ] minraise preflop
[ ] bet 1/3rd pot on flop
[x] put your opponent on a goddamn range
[x] how to: analyze calling an all-in

Wait, did the hand converter not work correctly? I used Leggo 4-colors & it shows up ok for me, but maybe not for everyone else? Hmm. Sorry 'bout that. I'll check out the posts you mentioned. Thanks!

Or, you could... Raise pre flop to at least $0.30, then put the callers on a range based on how often they are calling raises etc. With zero info, I'll stab a range of all pairs, all suited connectors 67+, suited aces and broadway for all three callers. These ranges are obviously a guess.

Once flop comes down, either bet properly, or check. When UTG raises, narrow his range. He's now got something like 67s 78s 33-JJ, though it helps a lot if we know more about villain, ie does he 3bet JJ pre flop, or what does he do with 33 on this flop? How does he play Ax diamonds?

OK, so I admit I'm not very good at figuring out equity (or using Pstove at this point) here's an attempt at the #'s and my line of thinking .... which, yes, I admit is not so savvy and may be fishy. But here goes:

I couldn't put the villain on a straight bc there's no way he sees the flop w/ 87 or 32. He could have a set obviously as he'd probably call a PFR w/ 66-44 and definitely w/ AA. But I also don't necessarily see him shoving his set into a 4 person multiway w/ such a dripping wet flop (...or do I?).

The A on the turn either made a set of aces which has me crushed. If it made a pair we're either chopping or I have his AQ, AJ, or maybe ATs beat, even if it includes one a spade. I don't see a nit seeing the flop w/ a weaker ace than that so I'm not too worried about something like A4 making two pair.

Which leaves the flush he might have made on the flop. Combos here I think include KQ, KJ, QJ, and KT spades.

So that's the range putting him on: four possible sets + the flush combos above. In PStove that comes out to ~48%, basically a coin flip. Am I way off here?

[Shotglass]

Is it ever OK to min-raise in EP?

I don't know about never but from UTG, imo def not ok to min raise. Maybe from the co or btn when it's been folded around to you and the blinds are total nits. Min raising at 5NL UTG is just asking to get three, four or more callers. That's not good for AK.

[!Luck]

You range from UTG is strong. You may as well raise 4x there. I like to 4x until HJ, then 3x on co and bu, cause my range is fairly weak there. Sometimes against some nitty opponents i will min raise open BU, if villains are tight in the blinds.

[daviddem]

OK, so I admit I'm not very good at figuring out equity (or using Pstove at this point) here's an attempt at the #'s and my line of thinking .... which, yes, I admit is not so savvy and may be fishy. But here goes:

I couldn't put the villain on a straight bc there's no way he sees the flop w/ 87 or 32. He could have a set obviously as he'd probably call a PFR w/ 66-44 and definitely w/ AA. But I also don't necessarily see him shoving his set into a 4 person multiway w/ such a dripping wet flop (...or do I?).

The A on the turn either made a set of aces which has me crushed. If it made a pair we're either chopping or I have his AQ, AJ, or maybe ATs beat, even if it includes one a spade. I don't see a nit seeing the flop w/ a weaker ace than that so I'm not too worried about something like A4 making two pair.

Which leaves the flush he might have made on the flop. Combos here I think include KQ, KJ, QJ, and KT spades.

So that's the range putting him on: four possible sets + the flush combos above. In PStove that comes out to ~48%, basically a coin flip. Am I way off here?

OK some problem with your ranges. Read again the "put your opponent on a goddamn range" post. You have to do it street by street for the final range to make sense. FOr example, do you not think he would 3b AA preflop? In that case he cannot have AA on the turn. Do you think he would raise the flop with AQ? If he wouldn't then he can't have AQ on the turn. Why do you think his only flush combos are KsTs-KsQs?

[rowhousepd]

OK some problem with your ranges. Read again the "put your opponent on a goddamn range" post. You have to do it street by street for the final range to make sense. FOr example, do you not think he would 3b AA preflop? In that case he cannot have AA on the turn. Do you think he would raise the flop with AQ? If he wouldn't then he can't have AQ on the turn. Why do you think his only flush combos are KsTs-KsQs?

I see what you're saying. Thanks for your advise, daviddem. Still learning how to work out ranges. It's slowly making more sense to me.