Flopped a set of tens but to a scary flop and even worse turn...

[madurskim]

3rd hand at the table and never played with villain before so I have absolutely no read on him.

Raises UTG (although it was a min. riase) and calls another min. reraise, all OOP so he has to have something decent.

Flop and Turn (pretty self explanatory I guess): All excited that I flop a set of tens, I take a closer look and say goodbye to the smile on my face. Flushes and straights out there. Any kind of good pair good kicker on the flop turns into a straight on the turn. His flush is made if he has one. Thus all the reasons I only called on the turn. The only thing that I would be able to beat that he'd be calling and betting with would be a two pair.

Only thing I can think of where I actually had him beat was if he just had some kind of pair and when he saw that I didn't re raise him again on the turn he knew I didn't hit it........but at the same time there are/were SO many different ways that I could have hit a straight/flush on the turn that I can't see how he isn't scared, just like me. Therefore I concluded his river bet meant it.

I'm pretty sure I played it right, but I haven't been able to get it off my mind since.

What do you guys think...

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($2.16)
MP2 ($1.47)
MP3 ($2.23)
CO ($1.78)
Hero (Button) ($1.97)
SB ($1.27)
BB ($2.04)
Villain (UTG) ($2.75)
UTG+1 ($0.33)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10 , 10
Villain bets $0.04, 4 folds, CO raises to $0.08, Hero calls $0.08, 2 folds, Villain calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.27) Q , K , 10 (3 players)
Villain bets $0.15, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.40, Villain calls $0.25

Turn: ($1.07) J (2 players)
Villain bets $0.36, Hero calls $0.36

River: ($1.79) 3 (2 players)
Villain bets $0.98, Hero folds

Total pot: $1.79 | Rake: $0.11



Actually, after looking this over....I think I should have reraised him a bit more on the flop....I guess I was scared knowing how many outs he had and how many different combinations he could have and how all those different hand combination all lead to so many outs. Maybe I should have reraised him larger than the pot to take it down right there?

[caddie444]

preflop isn't bad if you know villain minopens/calls 3bets a lot

but without knowing that, an argument can be made for folding preflop since you just aren't sure how often you're going to have to fold to a 4bet

On the flop you should definitely raise more as he's not folding anything

The turn looks ok since he bet smallish

fold river obv

[caddie444]

Maybe I should have reraised him larger than the pot to take it down right there?

You honestly want him to fold when you have the nuts? You want people to fold when you are bluffing, not when you are betting/raising for value.

[madurskim]

Well I would want him to fold because the flop was so extremely draw heavy.

And the only reason I called preflop was because they were all min. bets and raises, if they were larger then I would always fold.

[madurskim]

Yeah I figured he bet small on the turn b/c his draw probably hit and he figured I would reraise him again anyway, so he would get his value.

[daviddem]

Well I would want him to fold because the flop was so extremely draw heavy.

Thinking like this is very, very wrong. This may be right in some situations in tournaments, never in cash games.

You want draws to call you. You want to bet as much as you think they will call.

You should raise the flop more to properly deny drawing odds, and get value from drawing hands and pairs / two pairs hands. A 3/4 to full pot sized raise seems about right here. As played, call the turn because he makes the mistake of offering you correct odds to boat up. Don't raise, because you are behind his range (less than 50% equity) and you would have to fold to a reraise and dump your decent equity in the process. Fold river.

Also reraising preflop seems bad, since you would have to fold to a 5 bet. You would mostly fold worse hands and they would continue with better. Calling is fine if UTG is not going to 4b a large % of the time (unlikely I would think, given that he minraised). The odds are very good for set mining here, and you have position, so call.

Finally, go through the process of putting your opponents on proper street by street ranges and examine your equity vs these ranges and calculate your pot odds.

[couriermike]

This is a really good article that will help you with these turn spots.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...rs-143207.html

[madurskim]

Yeah I've read that that article is great. It actually really helped my game. Whenever I want to check I always ask myself "how much will I call if he bets?" and instead I just bet that amount. But the thing is I had position on him so how does that apply to this situation? Maybe I missed something..

[couriermike]

Yeah I've read that that article is great. It actually really helped my game. Whenever I want to check I always ask myself "how much will I call if he bets?" and instead I just bet that amount. But the thing is I had position on him so how does that apply to this situation? Maybe I missed something..

lol my bad

[Smith]

Min raise pre-flop?
Also you can't bet/fold when getting lead into...
Unless you minraise turn to define villains hand and buy free river for showdown.

[madurskim]

Damn I wish I thought of that: minraising (or at least a small raise) his bet on the turn to define his hand and then folding to a reraise. I'll have to keep that in mind for next time

[daven]

raise flop bigger, call turn as played, fold river as played. Doesn't look too bad.

[OngBonga]

^^ that

[Hoopy]

Value raise flop to $0.60+ as he's not folding much.

[madurskim]

Thanks for all the advice. I guess I just have to grow some bigger balls when it comes to flops like this.
But one more question: If I should have raised the flop more in order to deny drawing odds.........that's not the same thing as trying to get him to fold? Or is this a situation w/r/t The Fundamental Theorem of Poker concept that every time that the villain makes a mistake, I benefit?

[daviddem]

Thanks for all the advice. I guess I just have to grow some bigger balls when it comes to flops like this.
But one more question: If I should have raised the flop more in order to deny drawing odds.........that's not the same thing as trying to get him to fold? Or is this a situation w/r/t The Fundamental Theorem of Poker concept that every time that the villain makes a mistake, I benefit?

No. You bet enough to deny proper drawing odds and you hope that your opponent will make a mistake by calling with bad odds. That's how you benefit. If he folds, he plays correctly, so he makes no mistake and you don't profit (unless you were going to make huge mistakes on further streets, in which case you probably don't mind if he folds).

You have to read no limit theory and practice, it has really good sections about this and bet sizing. The idea on flops like these is that you have to bet enough not only just to deny proper drawing odds, but also enough to cover the mistakes YOU are likely to make on subsequent streets. For example, when you bet and your opponent calls and a flush card comes and he bets, you may mistakenly fold because he was bluffing, as he really was on a straight draw. You have to make him pay in advance for this possibility. Or when you are OOP, bet more because you are more likely to make mistakes OOP. Basically, make them pay the price now for your future potential mistakes.

[fourthings]

Thanks for all the advice. I guess I just have to grow some bigger balls when it comes to flops like this.
But one more question: If I should have raised the flop more in order to deny drawing odds.........that's not the same thing as trying to get him to fold? Or is this a situation w/r/t The Fundamental Theorem of Poker concept that every time that the villain makes a mistake, I benefit?

Well I'm no expert, but the point in denying him drawing odds is so if he does call, he's not calling profitably. I'm just trying to reiterate some of what I read in Slansky's NLHE Theory & Practice. So hopefully this helps.

Think about it from the villain's perspective. If you're in his position, you flop a draw or a pair-draw type hand in a 3-bet pot, although you might be be beat at the moment, you have a good chance to improve to the winning hand and take a good chunk, if not his entire stack. So in the case of a small raise like in the OP, we have sufficient implied odds (the immediate bet, plus a some more if we hit) to call profitably (as the villain did). If we raise bigger, the implied odds aren't as large, esp in the case, where we don't pay off if we don't boat up, the call isn't profitable anymore. The idea though is that in the microstakes we bet larger (which denies drawing odds) because they call anyways.

I think where you're getting confused is you think the purpose behind betting to deny drawing odds is to get him to fold, when it's actually to prevent him from calling profitably. Good players will probably make the right play; most microstakes players will call big bets, which is one of their (i could probably use the word "our" because i do make that mistake still) weaknesses. And we're trying to exploit the opponents weaknesses.

If anyone sees something that I just totally butchered or I'm completely wrong about. Don't feel shy and lay it on me. Hopefully this helps madurskim

[madurskim]

ahhh ok I see it now. So I bet/raise bigger on the flop not to make him fold his draw...at this point I actually WANT him to call with a draw b/c now the play is unprofitable for him (if he calls) and more profitable for me in the long run.

Right?

[caddie444]

Damn I wish I thought of that: minraising (or at least a small raise) his bet on the turn to define his hand and then folding to a reraise. I'll have to keep that in mind for next time

This is incredibly bad

ahhh ok I see it now. So I bet/raise bigger on the flop not to make him fold his draw...at this point I actually WANT him to call with a draw b/c now the play is unprofitable for him (if he calls) and more profitable for me in the long run.

Right?

bam

[Smith]

Minraise blocker bet = get to showdown or clean fold

Villain is taking the play away in this case. He is betting an amount where a minraise is equal to what our bet would be if it was checked to us. We would still be betting here for value/protection right? (BET/FOLD)

I like finding out if its an aggro donk bet or why he is donk betting in this manner. Aggressive Donks love playing this way, and putting you into tough spots. Plus they are setting their own price to get to showdown with weaker hands like pairs or two pairs. (this is why having a read is so important)

A min raise serves as a blocker bet, and is a hell of a lot better then putting money in and folding to another lead on the river. This in my opinion is weak, and we are just giving a donk too much credit with little evidence. IMHO

Or do we just assume that we are behind and hoping to catch an out? The river changed nothing. Letting a hand like KQ,KJ,take it down? Especially a two pair hand who picked up the K high flush draw on turn?

I agree that chances are we are probably beat, but I would rather put in an extra smallish bet to make sure. Especially if we would have bet in this spot to begin with. Being a 3bet pot also adds to being crushed in this spot, but it's such a lame 3bet pot due to both parties sizing.

So I guess the question is are we calling the turn only to hope he doesn't continue aggression or we hit our hand? Auto folding river when not improved?

I keep thinking this over, and I still like a minraise.

Then again, I play bad so....

[caddie444]

I agree that chances are we are probably beat...


I keep thinking this over, and I still like a minraise.