KK, min-raised on turn, facing shove on A river

[Nakamura]

I love Sundays, but villains always seem to take unusual lines. I'd like to say I check the turn here to make him bluff the river, but I was afraid he made a set. MR's on the turn always seem to be the nuts.

The real question is do we want to just call the turn or shove? Do we cry and call the river?

Edit - villain is pretty bad.

No Limit Holdem Tournament
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
$15+$1

Stacks:
UTG (1,500)
UTG+1 (1,500)
Hero (1,500)
MP2 (1,500)
MP3 (1,500)
CO (1,440)
BTN (1,580)
SB (1,480)
BB (1,500)

Blinds: 10/20

Pre-Flop: (30, 9 players) Hero is MP1 K K
2 folds, Hero raises to 60, 2 folds, CO calls 60, 3 folds

Flop: 3 9 7 (150, 2 players)
Hero bets 100, CO calls 100

Turn: 10 (350, 2 players)
Hero bets 240, CO raises to 520, Hero calls 280

River: A (1,390, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO goes all-in 760, Hero ???

[fulksy]

MR's on the turn always seem to be the nuts.

^^^ agree.

but with so many draws missing and the fact that you called turn i guess you need to call here.

also i think you get more value making it 80-100 pre.

[Duffryn]

I think the reponse to his min raise is either fold or shove. Your hand is very unlikely to improve on the river. I agree that turn raises usually mean big hands, and I don't think there is much in his turn minraising range that you beat, but if you think he is doing this with something like Ad8d or QhJh then surely a shove is best?

As played I would fold the river. I can't see much at all that you beat, especially as its pretty unlikely he has a K - maybe QhJh/QdJd, or possibly Jacks, Queens, JdTd or Td8d. As you have the Kd, he can't even have KdTd or Kd9d.

[ed cooper]

also i think you get more value making it 80-100 pre.

would be interested to get more opinions on this. since coming to this site ive mainly followed the advice and gone to 4bb early then 3bb ie 50 > 150, from then on 2.5bb.
as ive gained confidence ive been experimenting depending on reads, stacks, position and so forth...

understand what ur saying fulks but on ps u dont get many tables where 3 plyrs are calling ur raise any more. ok there will always be one but things seem to have changed. theyre weaker in different ways.
perhaps we may be losing value by raising too much...

have watched sizzlinbetta a bit recently, not sure if its just apathy on his part but he almost always religiously min raises. made me curious...

[Nakamura]

On Stars 100 is definitely too much. I think 3-4 times is fine at 10/20, 15/30. I see lots of people min-raise at the low levels. Generally it's fish, who think it's just cool, and some of the looser regs. It's probably not a plan bad as most people adjust really badly to min-raises.

The point isn't to steal the blinds at this level, it's to try and make a big hand and stack someone. Raising more narrows the field a little and makes hands like AK etc. easier to play. Hands like SCs and PPs benefit from lots of people in the pot as there is more chance they will make a hand they want to continue with.

Idk, but we probably need to be 3-betting min-raises with a widish range these days. This is the kind of thing cash players seem to do loads and tourney players do really badly. This is precisely the reason people are min-raising more and more, because it freezes people into playing hands passively.

IMO min-bets and the current trend is deserving of its own thread.

[baudib]

People min-raises at the first few levels with a huge range.

[Nakamura]

People min-raises at the first few levels with a huge range.

So should we be 3-betting, c-betting a flop with a wide range IP?

[baudib]

If we get to iso the min-raiser, then yes.

I think when they min-raise then call 3-bet they have 22-77 90% of the time. When they min-raise-then-shove they have KK+ (we should arguably fold QQ without a read).

[Nakamura]

I'm wondering how bad is it to 2x a min-raise. It gives us control of the pot IP, which is hugely important. I guess you could consider it a variant of the Scandinavian min-raise bluff.

[taipan168]

To be honest I think I would have just shoved over on the turn. Whilst sets, straights and AA are definitely within his range, so are hands like AT/KT and JJ/QQ. Note that I haven't included any of the Adxd-type hands in this range:

Board: 3d 9h 7d Th
Dead:

equity win tie
Hand 0: 57.978% 56.96% 01.02% { KdKs }
Hand 1: 42.022% 41.00% 01.02% { 99+, 77, 33, ATs, KTs, ATo, KTo }

Also, there are quite a few cards on the river that we won't want to see and which will put us to a tough decision.

As played, could go either way but I think I cry and fold and kick myself for not shoving over on the turn.

[baudib]

tai i think there are soooo many combo draws that missed or think they got there, like JTdd, it's probably close to a call.

[Nakamura]

FWIW, I called the river and he pitched up with a random hand like Jd4d for a busted draw.